Ugo Perego and the Case of the Missing DNA

[_BartBurk]

I would think the LDS Church would want to confirm that Joseph Smith fathered a child from one of his wives. In the past they would have been happy to show that Joseph Smith did practice real polygamy. I don't get it.

[_fetchface]

Wait, the Church SOLD the freely donated DNA samples of Smith descendants to Ancestry.com?

It is my understanding that the research was funded by Sorensen so that would be who sold it to Ancestry.com, not the church.

[_I have a question]

Wait, the Church SOLD the freely donated DNA samples of Smith descendants to Ancestry.com?

It is my understanding that the research was funded by Sorensen so that would be who sold it to Ancestry.com, not the church.

How could he, he was dead.

However, in 2008 Mr. Sorenson died, resources became scarce and, although I was promised to be able to continue to access these samples, they were all sold to Ancestry.com and I can no longer use them.

The Church has sway with Ancestry.com, why aren't they helping one of their own gain access?

Some background to this:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6001 ... tml?pg=all

Don Anderson, a senior vice president of patron and partner services at FamilySearch, announced that for the general public, free access would be granted for Ancestry.com, FindMyPast.com and MyHeritage.com in LDS Church family history centers worldwide.

Anderson also said that members of the LDS Church will be granted free subscriptions to Ancestry.com (the world edition subscription), MyHeritage.com (plus subscription) and FindMyPast.com (plus subscription), accessible from any location. These sites have between three and four times the number of records FamilySearch has, so it's a substantial amount of both records and technology, Anderson said.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8655 ... tml?pg=all

[_DarkHelmet]

Ya, and like anti-mormons never lie......

Almost everything anti-mormons say, especially in "conclusions" are lies (though yes they do use many true facts, but also ignore and misrepresent facts that debunk their conclusions so they can falsely degrade)

That's just the Mormon paranoid persecution complex. If there is a God he gave you this thing called a brain, and one of the amazing functions of the human brain is it can take a bunch of facts and then form conclusions. When people put the facts together in their mind and come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith made it all up (as the vast majority of people do), that's not an evil anti-mormon conspiracy. It's just people using their brains to make informed decisions.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

If the point of polygamy is to 'raise up seed' as many prophets and apostles claimed, then why didn't it work for Mr. Smith? It seems contradictory at best.

- Doc

[_Doctor Scratch]

Wait, the Church SOLD the freely donated DNA samples of Smith descendants to Ancestry.com?

It is my understanding that the research was funded by Sorensen so that would be who sold it to Ancestry.com, not the church.

I can't help but speculate a bit here. It sounds like Perego was conducting this research with something of a Mopologetic bent--i.e., his goal was to turn up evidence that Joseph Smith *did not* father any of these children--sort of like how Brant Gardner et al. approach Book of Mormon "research" by assuming from the outset that the Book of Mormon is legitimate history. It wouldn't surprise me if there were wealthy LDS out there who wanted the research done for precisely that reason: they want some scientist to go in and assure everyone that Joseph Smith is, in fact, precisely like the scrubbed, squeaky-clean person that the Church presents.

So, what about the Brethren? Do they share this view? Maybe some of them do, but collectively, I would think that they would follow standard procedure: their position is that they don't have an official position. They probably don't want the testing to happen at all (there's too much of a risk of the tests establishing paternity), so the solution is to have Ancestry.com buy up all the samples, thus making the research much more difficult.

Dealing with Perego, on the other hand, would be trickier. And in the past, we've seen this play out in different ways, neither of which tends to work out very well for the apologists. What if the testing proves paternity? Perego can go the honest route, which is bad for the Church, and devastating to the apologists, or, he can falsify the data, ala the 2nd Watson Letter and the 2-Inks hypothesis. The whole thing is just yet another instance of the apologists arrogantly and foolishly thinking that scholarship and science will one day help their cause.

[_SteelHead]

Results will only be as good as the sample data. Can we establish chain of custody and that samples are truly what is claimed?

[_Fence Sitter]

[

Dealing with Perego, on the other hand, would be trickier. And in the past, we've seen this play out in different ways, neither of which tends to work out very well for the apologists. What if the testing proves paternity? Perego can go the honest route, which is bad for the Church, and devastating to the apologists, or, he can falsify the data, ala the 2nd Watson Letter and the 2-Inks hypothesis. The whole thing is just yet another instance of the apologists arrogantly and foolishly thinking that scholarship and science will one day help their cause.

Or he can just not publish what he finds if he thinks it reflects poorly on the Church.

Hasn't he already done that with other data regard DNA research on 'Lamanites"?

[Guest]

Ya, and like anti-mormons never lie......

Almost everything anti-mormons say, especially in "conclusions" are lies (though yes they do use many true facts, but also ignore and misrepresent facts that debunk their conclusions so they can falsely degrade)

That's just the Mormon paranoid persecution complex. If there is a God he gave you this thing called a brain, and one of the amazing functions of the human brain is it can take a bunch of facts and then form conclusions. When people put the facts together in their mind and come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith made it all up (as the vast majority of people do), that's not an evil anti-mormon conspiracy. It's just people using their brains to make informed decisions.

Actually you are wrong as usual, for there are two factors.....

1. There are the gullible who are new to a subject who don't use their brains "enough" who just believe what they are told, not seeing the full, accurate and truthful facts.

Then....

2. There are those who are learned who use their brains, but because of their bigotry and intolerance also only see what they want to see, rather than the full facts and truth that would change their conclusions if they were actually objective. These persons also misrepresent, distort, etc. things in order to support their false and bigoted conclusions.

Most anti-mormons on this forum for example fall into the second category.
You guys have some intelligence, but not enough, and/or your bigotry stops you from seeing things and facts.
I've demonstrated many times on this forum showing you all things you don't see and ignore to make your conclusions, and anti-mormons still don't see them, and thus don't improve and learn. Your bigotry blocks all learning. Your glass is full, so you're incapable of seeing anything else.

So, yes, everyone uses their "brains", however not everyone uses their brains wisely, objectively, free of bigotry, efficiently, accurately, as well as in both study AND experience to truly understand, and also take a suject and put the two sides side by side and compare (still with an objective and fair mind), to see who is really telling the truth on a statement, subject, conclusion, etc.

So, the issue is far more complex than you think.
In fact, I'll give you a public and practical example of my point.

----

For years after 9/11 the media had been saying there were no WMD's in Iraq, and that Sadaam did not support terrorists.
I had seen this, over and over again, and this was also after the 9/11 Report. However, given that I'm not one to just accept what I'm told, I happened to have been listening to "The Rusty Humphries show" for a while. I was lucky, because on that show the host would sometimes interview current and former Military personal and even the top leaders who had worked at Guantanamo Bay, and also been involved and had information related to the WMD search. It was clear hearing these interviews that what the media was claiming of Guantanamo and WMD's was not the truth, and was not accurate. But, this only sparked my interest, again, I wasn't just going to believe what I was told.

So, it came time in which enough time had gone by that whatever the truth was, it should be out there.
So, I Googled WMD's in Iraq, Sadaam Terrorist connections in Iraq, etc. etc.
I spent a couple of days doing this.
Almost every article (all news articles) for pages and pages of Google, including the 9/11 report were all saying there were no WMD's, and no terrorist supporting by Sadaam. However, I started to find articles which listed various evidences of WMD's and terrorist support. I also started finding actual Military and other official Documents and reports indicating WMD's and terrorist support.
Basically this is what I found.....

- Sadaam was in fact engaging in large scale support of terrorist group activity's on his soil. (enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing)
- MOST WMD's had been shipped to Syria just prior to the War starting.
- Large stashes of WMD's WERE in fact found, though only a few.
- Large stashes of the "ingredients" required and specific for making WMD's WERE also found.

Now, these were not simply "opinion" articles from some conservative websites or something. In fact, most of the solid material I found wasn't even found on conservative websites, but in fact document dump websites. So, this was not made up bulldonkey, it was the actual and full truth and facts.

Yet, what have we ALL been told, and even the conservative side really hasn't said much on?
That there were no WMD's, and no terrorist support.
Thus, that narrative, that the entire world believes, is an absolute LIE.

And let me be clear..... I don't follow "conspiracy's". I'm not an Alex Jones supporter that believes his 9/11 conspiracy's, Bilderberg, etc.
I hate the guy, because of that and he also lies about conservatives taking liberal talking points in some things. He does a LOT of good in many things, but he ruins it by his also nut job and false views.

So, that's the deal.... It's the absolute truth. I learned if for myself, and I'm not lying at all.
Now, you might ask me to "prove it". But, I can't, because like all of my study, I study things out for myself and then move to the next thing.
I don't study sadley to be a "scholar", to write in depth articles proving things, as well I don't "collect" information. In hindesight, I wish I had done these two things, especially on the blacks and the priesthood issue because of what I learned 20 years ago when I was restudying the church again, and resolved that issue (and a couple others) and reconverted. But, such is life, we all have our interests and talents. My primary skills resided in Music and the Physical/Educational.

So, there you go...... Absolute truth.

[_ldsfaqs]

If the point of polygamy is to 'raise up seed' as many prophets and apostles claimed, then why didn't it work for Mr. Smith? It seems contradictory at best.

- Doc

It's because he didn't actually practice "Polygamy", he practiced the sealing ordinance.
He only had ONE "Official" Wife. Which is why he wasn't lying when he said he only had one, and why Emma swore to her death that he didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph nor the Church were practicing actual "Polygamy" yet. Sealing Ordinance yes, but not polygamy.
Polygamy is to raise seed, the Sealing Ordinance was just that.

Now, whether he was actually "intimate" with any of the other wives, none of which he lived with in Polygamy, that's another story, for which there is much question both ways on the matter. Which is why I don't say one way or the other, like anti-mormons.