Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

[_Tobin]

I seriously doubt human-beings from 2200 BC were that advanced.

Have you given consideration that it was just an ill-conceived plot device in a book that was simply made up? That seems more likely, no?

- Doc

Obviously. As I've said, the claims in the Book of Mormon are extraordinary and they shouldn't be believed without extraordinary evidence that they are true. But if they are true, that is quite a game-changer and that is why I think Mormonism (and the Book of Mormon) is so interesting.

[_Quasimodo]

By the way, this thread is about dishonest apologetics. I think we all agree that the FairMormon article is both sloppy and misleading.

Yep, I think FairMormon apologetics have to be sloppy to pull off the dishonesty. If they were honest, they couldn't get their theories to work.

What's the old saying? If you don't have the answer, baffle 'em with bull sh*t.

[_Molok]

By the way, this thread is about dishonest apologetics.

The only type of thread where Tobin can stay on topic

[_palerobber]

Thanks for that. So it seems they were using an English translation, where I was reading the original Spanish, which reads as follows (Torquemada is quoting Acosta):

echando mano a sus ramas, asi las desgajaban como otros deshojaran solas las hojas

It literally means "grabbing the tree branches [with their hands (mano)], thus they tore them off as others might strip off only the leaves

So, it's not pulling down trees but breaking off branches. In other words, these giants were big and strong, but not enough to pull down trees. It makes me wonder if the English translator was intentionally exaggerating.

The other thing to note is that, despite what Brown and Roper tell us, Torquemada doesn't say these were elephant-like ogres, but rather he links them to the passages in Genesis that say there were giants in the land after (according to some interpretations) some angels had sex with human women.

yeah, i should have been more precise -- Acosta himself didn't use the word "lettices", his 1604 English translator Edward Grimstom did. i'm jealous that you can read the original Spanish.

in any case, when you read the whole account it's really clear that he's not talking about some mysterious, mythical creatures. if anything, the native people Acosta is talking to may be overstating the whole "giants" thing (because oral tradition).

[_Runtu]

The only type of thread where Tobin can stay on topic

Seriously, though, Tobin's suggestions are not specific at all, and so they aren't very interesting. I get it that some possibly advanced beings could conceivably do things that are not possible for humans, but that's a dead-end answer. There's nowhere to go with it. As I said, the only reason for positing the existence of such advanced beings is the fantastical claims being made. The proper answer to the advanced aliens theory is, "Anything's possible. So what?"

In the meantime, we have Brown and Roper peddling demonstrable BS by manipulating sources.

[_Runtu]

yeah, i should have been more precise -- Acosta himself didn't use the word "lettices", his 1604 English translator Edward Grimstom did. i'm jealous that you can read the original Spanish.

in any case, when you read the whole account it's really clear that he's not talking about some mysterious, mythical creatures. if anything, the native people Acosta is talking to may be overstating the whole "giants" thing (because oral tradition).

I really appreciate you finding that source, as I couldn't figure out why they were talking about pulling down whole trees like lettuce. So, again, thank you.

[_Tobin]

The only type of thread where Tobin can stay on topic

Seriously, though, Tobin's suggestions are not specific at all, and so they aren't very interesting. I get it that some possibly advanced beings could conceivably do things that are not possible for humans, but that's a dead-end answer. There's nowhere to go with it. As I said, the only reason for positing the existence of such advanced beings is the fantastical claims being made. The proper answer to the advanced aliens theory is, "Anything's possible. So what?"

In the meantime, we have Brown and Roper peddling demonstrable BS by manipulating sources.

You keep saying that, but it isn't true. If you believe in evolution, then you should believe life has evolved elsewhere in the universe. Evolution is likely a cosmic imperative true throughout the universe. Also, most scientists believe life exists elsewhere in the universe, so it is perfectly reasonable to believe that there is likely advanced intelligent life a billion years or more evolved than ourselves. That is hardly a crank anything-is-possible kind of movement there.

Given all of that: if advanced life exists (as it likely does), they likely arrived here long ago and are monitoring us. And if they are here, they have likely interacted with human-beings in the past (and were likely mistaken for gods and worshipped) and they are likely still here and still interfering with us now and will be well into the future.

I think that is a very rational and hopeful belief (based on good scientific principles and logic). And it should tell us that if they survived their technology infancy with atomic weapons, then we might too and may one day also explore other worlds (and might even be worshipped by the primitive life there as gods as well).

[_sock puppet]

... All solvable with proper engineering and technology. The vessels described were obviously advanced since they employed technology that we even don't have (no magic required).

How so? Would you mind going into engineering detail how this would be feasible given their resources and technology?

- Doc

Tobin's idea of engineering is "Jesus make it happen".

[_Runtu]

I've finally located the original story of the dancing giant in Torquemada.

http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/publicadigital/monarquia/volumen/01/02Libro%20Primero/miv1029.pdf

It's too long to quote entirely, but here's my summary (I'll quote some of it):

The story is about the destruction of the Toltecs, who had been persecuted and oppressed by a certain king. Believing the persecution resulted from their "having angered their gods," all the Toltec priests, princes, and lords gathered together in Teotihuacan to have a "fiesta" to please and placate the angry gods.

In the middle of the fiesta, a demon appeared in the form of a "great giant" (described as appearing in a "sudden vision") and began to dance with them. They were afraid of the giant because it was "too large and deformed, with long and thin arms." Believing the giant had been sent by the gods, they turned their faces to him. As he danced with them, "he began to embrace them in his arms, and as many as he caught between his arms (like another Hercules did to Antaeus) he took their lives, sending all of them surely to death."

"Another day, the demon appeared again among them in the form of another giant with long and tapered hands and fingers." This time, he pierced them with his long, tapered fingers and hands, thus killing them.

"At the end of the festivities, the same demon appeared to them on a tall hill ... in the figure and form of a very beautiful and white child seated on a rock and with all of his head rotten/decayed, and many people died from the stench that came from [the head], as if wounded by a mortal and venomous poison." The Toltecs tried to capture the child and drag him to a great lagoon to drown him, but he was too strong for them. While they were trying to capture the child, the demon appeared again and told them they must leave the land if they wanted to save themselves from death, ruin, and calamities.

[_grindael]

Joseph Smith: Heard and read stories of Indians and fantasied that Hebrew ancestors came to this country using magic boats.

TROLLBIN: Heard and read stories of space aliens and fantasied that alien ancestors came to this world using magic spacecraft.