Exploiting Kate Kelly

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_Kishkumen
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Exploiting Kate Kelly

Post by _Kishkumen »

A new offering from Sic et Non:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2015/10/kate-kelly-helps-to-ordain-a-female-catholic-priest.html

One of the problems I have had with Kate Kelly is that she presented herself as a believing LDS person, but then, on closer examination, proved to be rather a different kind of Mormon. I'm OK with her idiosyncratic faith, and I can't cast aspersions on anyone for their unorthodoxy, but the problem with Kate's unorthodoxy is that, wedded with her iconic leadership role in Ordain Women, it has proven to be something of a liability for the other participants in OW. After all, other participants in OW were and remain quite a bit more orthodox than Kelly. Kristy Money is a good example. Anyone who wants a taste of her perspective can listen to her three-part Mormon Stories interview.

It was inevitable that someone would jump on odd press from the life of Kate Kelly to make a specious case against Ordain Women and those who are sympathetic to the OW cause. Recently, Kate Kelly participated in the ordination of a woman to the Catholic priesthood.

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/mediapool/sites/sltrib/Pages/gallery.csp?cid=3075882&pid=2858535

Dr. Peterson does not disappoint:

DCP wrote:This sort of thing, in my judgment, should strengthen the suspicion of many orthodox members in the pews that partisans of the women’s ordination movements in Mormonism and Catholicism don’t really believe in cardinal principles of the faiths in which they seek ordination. It suggests, yet again, that they’re not merely seeking incremental reform of their traditions but creating, wholesale, some kind of new religion or religions of their own.


It is specious reasoning to use the rather idiosyncratic excommunicant Kate Kelly to cast suspicion on all women associated with the Ordain Women movement or other LDS women who want the priesthood, but this is precisely with DCP does here. Peterson takes this one example as an invitation to "strengthen suspicion" that LDS women who desire ordination in the priesthood "don't really believe in the cardinal principles of the faiths in which they seek ordination."

Of course, this is pure nonsense. Kate Kelly does not represent all women who want ordination to the LDS priesthood. Very rare is the LDS woman who would express her desire for female ordination in Mormonism by ordaining a non-LDS woman to the Catholic priesthood. I would say this is definitely good evidence that Kate Kelly is a universalist--something she has expressed publicly on more than one occasion. In that, she is probably not representative of most LDS women seeking priesthood ordination.

How do I know? Because these are LDS women. Most of them remain LDS because they believe in Mormonism and its claims to being the one true church with efficacious priesthood conferred by divine beings. Ordaining a woman to the Catholic priesthood would probably be one of the last things any one of these LDS women would contemplate doing.

One bit of DCP's post deserves a little closer examination:

DCP wrote:It suggests, yet again, that they’re not merely seeking incremental reform of their traditions but creating, wholesale, some kind of new religion or religions of their own.


Anyone who is conversant in Mormon history knows that women's roles in the authorized use of spiritual gifts have contracted over time. The movement of LDS women seeking ordination to the priesthood is informed by this well-documented history. It is informed by the actual history of the founding of the Relief Society. Ordain Women, in particular, sought the priesthood by asking the prophet to seek revelation in a gesture that was reminiscent of Emma asking Joseph to pray about the issues that led to the revelation we know as the Word of Wisdom. In other words, this movement is informed by the Mormon religion's own history and it has thus far, on the whole, behaved in a way that is entirely consonant with that religion.

It is misleading to say that Kate Kelly, ex-communicated Mormon and former leader of OW, is representative of the behavior of the rest of the women in the OW movement. Kate may now embrace a different religion. She may have been unorthodox for some time. But her actions do not really reflect on OW.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_MsJack
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Re: Exploiting Kate Kelly

Post by _MsJack »

DCP wrote:It suggests, yet again, that they’re not merely seeking incremental reform of their traditions but creating, wholesale, some kind of new religion or religions of their own.

Or, perhaps, restoring a significant part of Christianity that had been lost:

Bishop Atto of Vercelli, 10th Century, writing to a priest named Ambrose wrote:Because your prudence has moved you to inquire how we should understand “female priest” (presbyteram) or “female deacon” (diaconam) in the canons: it seems to me that in the primitive church, according to the word of the Lord, “the harvest was great and the laborers few”; religious women (religiosae mulieres) used also to be ordained as caretakers (cultrices ordinabantur) in the holy church, as Blessed Paul shows in the Letter to the Romans, when he says, “I commend to you my sister Phoebe, who is in the ministry of the church at Cenchrea.” Here it is understood that not only men but also women presided over the churches (sed etiam feminae praeerat ecclesiis) because of their great usefulness. For women, long accustomed to the rites of the pagan and instructed also in philosophical teachings, were, for these reasons, converted more easily and taught more liberally in the worship of religion. This the eleventh canon of the Council of Laodicea prohibits when it says it is not fitting for those women who are called female presbyters (presbyterae) or presiders (praesidentes) to be ordained in the churches. We believe female deacons truly to have been ministers of such things. For we say that a minister is a deacon (diaconum) from which we perceive female deacon (diaconam) to have been derived. Finally, we read in the fifteenth canon of the Council of Chalcedon that a female deacon is not to be ordained before her fortieth year—and this was the highest gravity. We believe women were enjoined to the office of baptizing so that the bodies of other women might be handled by them without any deeply felt sense of shame . . . just as those who were called female presbyters (presbyterae) assumed the office of preaching, leading, and teaching, so female deacons had taken up the office of ministry and of baptizing, a custom that is no longer expedient.

I agree with Bishop Atto that the ancient evidence points to ordained women in the early church. I disagree that the practice is "no longer expedient." It's more expedient now than it ever has been.

Mormons say they believe in the restoration of the early church.

I say, "Prove it."
"It seems to me that these women were the head (?????????) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Exploiting Kate Kelly

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Does Mr. Peterson subscribe to Mormon orthodoxy? crap. I had no idea because every time we would make a claim about Mormon orthodoxy it seemed like he would claim we were too literal or not nuanced enough. We recently saw the same thing with Mr. Mak who's dodging and weaving could only be matched by Muhammed Ali.

Float like a butterfly, indeed.

Anyhow. I sure would love to know what kind of orthodoxy isn't susceptible to the winds of change:

Priesthood Ban
Polygamy
Temple Ceremonies
Missionary Age, Marital Status, Gender
Book of Mormon Translation, No Plates Necessary
Book of Abraham, by His Own Hand
Tithing Transparency
Nature of God, Triune & Adam-God
First Vision(s)

I could literally add 30 more items that were considered orthodox beliefs and practices that have changed. What is Mormon orthodoxy?

Mr. Peterson, appropriately, wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

V/R
Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Exploiting Kate Kelly

Post by _Kishkumen »

MsJack wrote:Mormons say they believe in the restoration of the early church.

I say, "Prove it."


Well said, Jack.

I don't think there is any real commitment to Early Christianity in Mormonism. Not really. There is a commitment to following Joseph Smith's idea of Early Christianity because it is purportedly grounded in revelation. The historical evidence is too varied and too confusing to rely on. In short, the actual ancient church is not useful to Mormons because it does not fit the Mormon model of an early church.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Exploiting Kate Kelly

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doc, Kate Kelly's actions look so bizarre that it does not really matter whether Mormon orthodoxy has any stable meaning or not. The real problem is DCP's use of the idiosyncratic ex-Mormon Kelly to characterize her former colleagues in OW. Just my 2 cents.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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