John Dehlin: A Spy Story

[_Gadianton]

Thank you Reverend. Unfortunately, it's true that in addition to going on vacations and enjoying a Holiday, Mormons have a huge culture of gossip, spying, and ratting each other out. Many members understand their duty and turn in their neighbors on their own accord, however, it's a great honor to be explicitly tapped and entrusted by a leader to carry out intelligence gathering on a fellow Saint. No doubt succeeding at such a task has rewards in terms of leadership prospects.

When I was at BYU, there were boxes around campus for anonymously reporting honor code violations. It should not be surprising that this was so considering it is not loving God or loving one's neighbor, but obedience, that is the first law of heaven. If a reboot of the Milgram experiment were done on LDS subjects, I have every expectation LDS subjects would "magnify their calling" by pushing the voltage into the red. They'd lap up the praise of their leaders while their fellow man lay crumpled on the ground shrieking in pain.

[_Kishkumen]

it is also important to keep in mind the TOTALITY of the balance of power, and not just one aspect of it. the church does not have the power to get rid of john whenever it wants, it has a process for getting rid of anyone and it can choose to follow or not follow that process. we have established that there are different views of how that was done, but there was a process followed.

the member has next to no power? are you effing kidding me? look pal, with all due respect, i have been on the wrong side of a lot of church courts. more than you can imagine. i am ashamed of it. but that comment is absolute BS in this case. the cards stacked heavily against john? BULLSHIIIIIIIIIIT! john was running a media campaign that was unmatched by the church. unmatched. john's trespass is not a minor issue given the scope and personal nature of it, including PUBLISHING DR. KINGS PROFESSIONAL information to have his followers slam his reviews. do not say stacked against or diminish the unethical nature of what dehlin was doing to volunteers and lay members along with his propaganda against the church.

Of course the member has next to no power. The Church does not even follow its own policies and procedures for excommunication when it does not want to, and there is exactly zero a member can do about it when that happens. When Kate Kelly was excommunicated, the Church violated its own procedures to move on her quickly. When the Church moved on Dehlin, it precipitously took action, bypassing the usual procedures. The Church acts in its own interests in its own time to do what it wants to do. And, there is zero transparency to the process.

The Church owns its own media outlets. The Church has its own PR people. The Church has billions of dollars at its disposal.

Every power is limited and vulnerable to a certain extent, but if you imagine that John was really powerful in all of this, you are the one who is being naïve.

He did what he could in a struggle that was tilted heavily against him. Ultimately, and predictably, he lost.

But none of this changes the fact that the Church's way of enabling its lay leaders to act unethically in stalking, spying on, and disciplining its members is wrong. It is wrong, and it is wrong however dark a picture you paint of John Dehlin. Because, by using this opportunity to once again attack John, all you are showing is that you think that the Church is justified in breaking its own policies or in continuing in policies that are unethical to begin with.

So, go ahead, ME. Attack John Dehlin, because that is what you do around here, and support the unethical activities of the LDS Church to do so. I can't say it makes much sense, but you are at least consistent.

[Guest]

and that, my friend, is the exclamation here. this is an interview about john and about john and about john and about john and about john. it is not about spying. it is not a connection to practices of Arthur Zander or the practices of hauling in a young woman because some young man or young woman in the stake confessed to heavy petting with her. it is not even on the spectrum.

this is a case of a man, running a business and a campaign, who even after one year, cannot stand to be outside the concentration of attention. a man who still fails to acknowledge even ONE IOTA of his own role in anything that ever happened to him. who now does hours of interviews pretending that he suffered from the things that are done that actually do harm to real people. eff him. the joke is up.

Well, I think this speaks for itself. You are so blinded by your hatred of John Dehlin that we can expect you to use any mention of him here to get on your soapbox about him and rage on for the umpteenth time. Yawn.

Now, back to the topic of the thread....

And by this, I mean that I will no longer respond to posts that make this primarily an issue of John Dehlin's bad character and desire for attention.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I have to be honest, folks. I did a search here using 'Mayan Elephant' and 'Dehlin' as keywords so I could understand ME's angle. It resulted in 28 pages! 28! But I was unable to find any sort of thorough breakout of ME's experience with Mr. Dehlin that would explain the almost obsessive hate he has for him. I read many pages of vague assertions and innuendo, but that's about. *shrugs*

If I'm missing something please direct me to it. I'd really like to understand ME's position.

- Doc

[_Kishkumen]

I have to be honest, folks. I did a search here using 'Mayan Elephant' and 'Dehlin' as keywords so I could understand ME's angle. It resulted in 28 pages! 28! But I was unable to find any sort of thorough breakout of ME's experience with Mr. Dehlin that would explain the almost obsessive hate he has for him. I read many pages of vague assertions and innuendo, but that's about. *shrugs*

If I'm missing something please direct me to it. I'd really like to understand ME's position.

- Doc

Maybe ME will send you a link through PM. I don't begrudge him his hatred of John Dehlin. I do wish he wouldn't crap all over my thread to act out, however.

[_Kishkumen]

Thank you Reverend. Unfortunately, it's true that in addition to going on vacations and enjoying a Holiday, Mormons have a huge culture of gossip, spying, and ratting each other out. Many members understand their duty and turn in their neighbors on their own accord, however, it's a great honor to be explicitly tapped and entrusted by a leader to carry out intelligence gathering on a fellow Saint. No doubt succeeding at such a task has rewards in terms of leadership prospects.

When I was at BYU, there were boxes around campus for anonymously reporting honor code violations. It should not be surprising that this was so considering it is not loving God or loving one's neighbor, but obedience, that is the first law of heaven. If a reboot of the Milgram experiment were done on LDS subjects, I have every expectation LDS subjects would "magnify their calling" by pushing the voltage into the red. They'd lap up the praise of their leaders while their fellow man lay crumpled on the ground shrieking in pain.

This accords with my experience, Dean Robbers. Ratting out fellow members, turning in other students for Honor Code violations, and the like: these are part of the everyday lived experience of thousands upon thousands of LDS people. Some folks apparently go in for that sort of thing. Unreflective obedience to authority is not, in my view, part of a healthy, free society. It breeds a people whose moral reasoning is infantile. Of course, people are resilient, and many will still grow in spite of this kind of environment, but the damage perpetrated on members in this state of affairs is incalculable, I'm sure.

[_Maksutov]

I have to be honest, folks. I did a search here using 'Mayan Elephant' and 'Dehlin' as keywords so I could understand ME's angle. It resulted in 28 pages! 28! But I was unable to find any sort of thorough breakout of ME's experience with Mr. Dehlin that would explain the almost obsessive hate he has for him. I read many pages of vague assertions and innuendo, but that's about. *shrugs*

If I'm missing something please direct me to it. I'd really like to understand ME's position.

- Doc

Maybe ME will send you a link through PM. I don't begrudge him his hatred of John Dehlin. I do wish he wouldn't s*** all over my thread to act out, however.

Reverend, re: your OP...I wonder if this kind of internal witch hunting isn't some purification stage of groups. I can see where it would get out of hand and blow up any kind of group cohesion and stability. There have to be a lot of tensions in a conservative community that is set against "the world". Shedding the less committed seems almost automatic, a consequence of the interpersonal dynamics of the culture.

[_RockSlider]

I can't speak for PJ, but my Etch-A-Sketch can't bring up anything called Google for some reason.

Well hello, it seems to have a huge crack across it's face ... no wonder!

While I have your attention hagoth, did you go on a mission?

I ask because this rat on your brother thing is/was ingrained in all missionaries right? If they sinned and you did not tell on them, it becomes your sin. You are just as responsible for your companion as for yourself correct?

This one example of indoctrination on top of many more is really horrendous as I look back on it.

Save your brother by ratting on him and calling him to repentance .... lets take it a step further and really do him a favor for serious sins and spill his blood so he might quickly go to hell and pay his portion, so that he might get back on track and join the righteous.

Well crap, we probably can not get away with helping him blood atone, but we sure can help him repent by turning him over to the buffeting of Satan here in this life .... Let's love him, let's excommunicate him ... all in favor ... go and gather evidence of wickedness.

[_Kishkumen]

I know it is a bit of a derail (Sorry Kish) but I am interested if either Prester John or hagoth7 have figured out how to do Google searches yet?

I mean if they haven't, isn't that evidence that at least two members are not spying on others by using the internet?

Well, the Church had more talented folk like Simon Belmont helping out with the serious stuff.

[_Kishkumen]

Reverend, re: your OP...I wonder if this kind of internal witch hunting isn't some purification stage of groups. I can see where it would get out of hand and blow up any kind of group cohesion and stability. There have to be a lot of tensions in a conservative community that is set against "the world". Shedding the less committed seems almost automatic, a consequence of the interpersonal dynamics of the culture.

You make an excellent point, Brother Maksutov. To what extent are these mechanisms simply part of life inside a religious organization that stands in greater tension with surrounding society? If the Brethren are thought to be wrong about "same sex attraction", what will happen to the loyalty of the members or the solidarity of the group? You could substitute just about any other hot-button issue here. Those who suggest the Brethren just may be wrong about these issues are threatening the life's blood of the group. Yep.

What amazes me, however, is just how thoroughgoing this culture of monitoring and snitching is. I would like to think that both Jesus and Joseph Smith would have lamented a state of affairs in which facial hair is looked upon with grave suspicion and people can't help but peek into their neighbors' grocery baskets to check for coffee and beer. It is impossible for me to participate actively in an organization that requires monitoring and snitching. I understand the thing about tension, and I am not really averse to flouting the norms of society. But, really, does it have to center on the outward observance of such petty standards? Why can't I worry about my own conscience and leave my neighbors' sins out of it altogether?

Well, I can. That is why I do not participate in Church. I do not do personal priesthood interviews. I find the whole system beneath adults living in a free society.