Violence in Deseret

[_Gadianton]

This is tragic though fully expected news. Certainly, it is confirmation that the foundation of the Mormon testimony is not a burning of the bosom, but the stating of falsehoods under threat of one's spying neighbors.

[_Kishkumen]

This is tragic though fully expected news. Certainly, it is confirmation that the foundation of the Mormon testimony is not a burning of the bosom, but the stating of falsehoods under threat of one's spying neighbors.

It looks like Brigham really faced a struggle selling his mountain kingdom and his own position as prophet and king to many of the people who actually had to live in it. I would say the evidence is pretty clear that he turned to methods of coercion and terror to keep the people in line.

[_honorentheos]

I found a wonderful piece by Will Bagley on religious violence in Deseret at MormonThink. It is well worth checking out, and I think shows the distant roots of the milder forms of Mormon social and ecclesiastical violence we still see today in shunning, disowning, and excommunication.

The link is to a .pdf file.

http://mormonthink.com/backup/conandoylewasright.pdf

I downloaded and read this last night. Excellent. Thanks so much for sharing!

[_Maksutov]

More and more I come to a condition of astonishment at the parallelism in methods between Utah in the early days and any totalitarian state today. The whole thing is there--private army, secret police, encirclement myth, territorial dynamism, self-sufficiency, chosen people, absolute dictatorship operating through party rule, group psychology, esoteric symbols, sacred and distinguishing uniforms (garments), New Order and all.

Many of the elements were already there in Nauvoo. Maybe earlier.

A fascinating Stegner quote I hadn't seen before.

[_DrW]

More and more I come to a condition of astonishment at the parallelism in methods between Utah in the early days and any totalitarian state today. The whole thing is there--private army, secret police, encirclement myth, territorial dynamism, self-sufficiency, chosen people, absolute dictatorship operating through party rule, group psychology, esoteric symbols, sacred and distinguishing uniforms (garments), New Order and all.

Many of the elements were already there in Nauvoo. Maybe earlier.

A fascinating Stegner quote I hadn't seen before.

Would anyone who has read the BY biography, "Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet" care to comment as to whether any of the damning material covered in the Will Bagley article is dealt with in the book?

[_fetchface]

Would anyone who has read the BY biography, "Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet" care to comment as to whether any of the damning material covered in the Will Bagley article is dealt with in the book?

It has been a while since I read it but I don't remember him spending a lot of time on social control types of things. I mean, I thought it was an interesting book and I learned a lot of things about BY that I found disturbing but if I am remembering correctly it just didn't spend a whole lot of time on that. But it has been a long time so maybe there is more in there than I am remembering.

[_DrW]

Would anyone who has read the BY biography, "Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet" care to comment as to whether any of the damning material covered in the Will Bagley article is dealt with in the book?

It has been a while since I read it but I don't remember him spending a lot of time on social control types of things. I mean, I thought it was an interesting book and I learned a lot of things about BY that I found disturbing but if I am remembering correctly it just didn't spend a whole lot of time on that. But it has been a long time so maybe there is more in there than I am remembering.

Thanks. Good to know.

I found the Bagley article disturbing (to say the least) and wonder how widely recognized (or even believed) this kind of history is among the Utah Mormons.

[_Analytics]

Consider this interesting quote from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's A Study in Scarlet:

The very friend to whom you communicated your misgivings as to the Prophet and his mission might be one of those who would come forth at night with fire and sword to exact a terrible reparation. Hence every man feared his neighbor, and none spoke of things which were nearest his heart.

Of course, this is fiction, but it resonates with the terrible sense of isolation that accompanies doubt in Mormonism. The fear of confiding disbelief to others is very real, because the social consequences of disbelief are very real and very painful. Such fear and isolation don't spring up over night. They come from a tradition born in the authoritarianism and religious violence of Deseret.

In terms of the amount of insight per word, this is one of the very best posts I've read in a long time. Thanks Kish.

[_Kishkumen]

I recommend this National Geographic documentary's scene inside a North Korean home:

https://youtu.be/DVG4mOgJotY?t=25m31s

[_Mormon Think]

More good stuff from WIll: http://www.mormonthink.com/willbagley.htm

Bill