Violence in Deseret

[_RockSlider]

In looking for more information on Will Bagley's work on BY's Steam Engine (which I'm not finding any), I ran across this:

Sessions 2003 Fair conference

Note Sessions admission early on:

I must tell you up front (you can throw tomatoes or whatever you want at me) that I was one of the readers that the University of Oklahoma Press sent a manuscript and I recommended publication because I believed very strongly and still do that Br. Bagley had done intense research and that it was fairly exhaustive. He solved whatever he could see and looked very deeply, plumbed very deeply, to find much information that Juanita Brooks did not have when she published her landmark book in 1950. And so I was impressed with that and recommended that the Oklahoma Press publish the book but I cautioned the Press that it was an anti-Mormon polemic and that I did not agree with Will’s conclusions and we’ll talk more about that some more here if time allows.

Through the rest of the presentation, Will is not really mentioned again, but the focus turns to Sally Denton.

I've heard this story before, about the bones being dug up by accident and ending up at the UofU ... but I was surprised that one of Sessions' two rebuttals was modern day! Apparently Sally made a big deal out of the modern day church trying to cover up secrets in the bones.

I was further surprised to find his second rebuttal was also modern day! This story I have never heard before ... "lead sheet" found at Lee's Ferry, put there by someone in 1998 or 1999.

Either way, I was shocked that there was Zero rebuttal to any of the actual historical information, only defense for Hinkley and the modern church.

I'd still like to find more information on the Steam Engine/whiskey besides the video (poor sound etc.). Does anyone have information here?

[_Kishkumen]

Check out how these North Koreans celebrate being cured of blindness:

https://youtu.be/DVG4mOgJotY?t=44m54s

[_Kishkumen]

Check out this apologetic for North Korean leader worship:

https://youtu.be/yhnaJp89_6A?t=1m50s

[_Runtu]

It looks like Brigham really faced a struggle selling his mountain kingdom and his own position as prophet and king to many of the people who actually had to live in it. I would say the evidence is pretty clear that he turned to methods of coercion and terror to keep the people in line.

The seeds of this stuff were planted in the Nauvoo period, though perhaps Joseph's efforts weren't as large-scale or effective as Brigham's. Still, Nauvoo had the whistling-and-whittling brigade, secret oaths of loyalty, secret ceremonies, and so forth. Perhaps Brigham was worried that, unless he kept a lid on dissent, he might meet the same end.

[_Quasimodo]

It looks like Brigham really faced a struggle selling his mountain kingdom and his own position as prophet and king to many of the people who actually had to live in it. I would say the evidence is pretty clear that he turned to methods of coercion and terror to keep the people in line.

The seeds of this stuff were planted in the Nauvoo period, though perhaps Joseph's efforts weren't as large-scale or effective as Brigham's. Still, Nauvoo had the whistling-and-whittling brigade, secret oaths of loyalty, secret ceremonies, and so forth. Perhaps Brigham was worried that, unless he kept a lid on dissent, he might meet the same end.

I am certainly not a historian, so please re-read my sig line. It does seem to me that BY's moving the Saints to the Salt Lake Valley completely isolated them at that time. Very far away from any other government's interference.

The perfect opportunity to set up an iron fisted dictatorship. The Saints were already more than halfway willing to accept this type of authoritarian rule because they had accepted that it was God's will.

Brigham Young used this new freedom to solidify his control. I think this is where the LDS Church really begins. Joseph lured people into his religion with the Book of Mormon and Brigham took the opportunity of isolation to create a dictatorship (I'm not sure that theocracy is the correct word).

By the time the US Government established control over the Utah Territory, the dictatorship was firmly in place. It's only recently, with the rise of the internet, that cracks are becoming apparent in Brigham's regime.

[_Runtu]

I am certainly not a historian, so please re-read my sig line. It does seem to me that BY's moving the Saints to the Salt Lake Valley completely isolated them at that time. Very far away from any other government's interference.

The perfect opportunity to set up an iron fisted dictatorship. The Saints were already more than halfway willing to accept this type of authoritarian rule because they had accepted that it was God's will.

Brigham Young used this new freedom to solidify his control. I think this is where the LDS Church really begins. Joseph lured people into his religion with the Book of Mormon and Brigham took the opportunity of isolation to create a dictatorship (I'm not sure that theocracy is the correct word).

By the time the US Government established control over the Utah Territory, the dictatorship was firmly in place. It's only recently, with the rise of the internet, that cracks are becoming apparent in Brigham's regime.

Pretty much. I would say it was a dictatorship associated with a religious ideology. In practice, dictatorships always have an ideological justification, but the ideology is more a tool for the state than a raison d'etre.

[_Kishkumen]

The seeds of this stuff were planted in the Nauvoo period, though perhaps Joseph's efforts weren't as large-scale or effective as Brigham's. Still, Nauvoo had the whistling-and-whittling brigade, secret oaths of loyalty, secret ceremonies, and so forth. Perhaps Brigham was worried that, unless he kept a lid on dissent, he might meet the same end.

I agree with all of the above. What is striking to me about 1850s Deseret is the formalization of violence and its connection with the spiritual rededication of the Reformation. You also have the institution of "ward teachers" who would come to check on you. They are the precursors to today's home teachers, but somewhat more sinister.

[_Kishkumen]

I am certainly not a historian, so please re-read my sig line. It does seem to me that BY's moving the Saints to the Salt Lake Valley completely isolated them at that time. Very far away from any other government's interference.

The perfect opportunity to set up an iron fisted dictatorship. The Saints were already more than halfway willing to accept this type of authoritarian rule because they had accepted that it was God's will.

Brigham Young used this new freedom to solidify his control. I think this is where the LDS Church really begins. Joseph lured people into his religion with the Book of Mormon and Brigham took the opportunity of isolation to create a dictatorship (I'm not sure that theocracy is the correct word).

Sounds about right to me.

[_Quasimodo]

The seeds of this stuff were planted in the Nauvoo period, though perhaps Joseph's efforts weren't as large-scale or effective as Brigham's. Still, Nauvoo had the whistling-and-whittling brigade, secret oaths of loyalty, secret ceremonies, and so forth. Perhaps Brigham was worried that, unless he kept a lid on dissent, he might meet the same end.

I agree with all of the above. What is striking to me about 1850s Deseret is the formalization of violence and its connection with the spiritual rededication of the Reformation. You also have the institution of "ward teachers" who would come to check on you. They are the precursors to today's home teachers, but somewhat more sinister.

When my non-Mormon family lived in SLC, home teachers would come to visit us on a monthly basis (my dad would never turn anyone away).

Now you have me wondering if they were just keeping an eye on us.

[_Kishkumen]

Now you have me wondering if they were just keeping an eye on us.

Of course they were keeping an eye on you, but they also believed they were being genuinely caring and helpful.