John Dehlin: A Spy Story

[_Kishkumen]

However, I can understand why Honor would make those comments about his LGBT activism. Most of my Dehliniteism, as ME would accuse me of, comes from associations with MS prior to 2010. That was well before all the gay activism really started. I don't really have an opinion about that aspect of it, but can certainly understand where Honor is coming from.

My problem with the conclusion that this is cynical on John's part is that he had a gay cousin, whom I believe he was fairly close to. This is consistent with the LGBT activism of a lot of members of the LDS Church. They got involved because of loved ones and family members who were gay and hurting on account of the Church's doctrines and policies regarding homosexuality. I have a very hard time believing John would be so cynical and uncaring of his own cousin that he would undertake LGBT activism just so he could pump his own celebrity. Moreover, I am fairly close to John's gay cousin's brother, and never has this brother ever doubted JD's sincerity in his LGBT activism. That is good enough for me.

[_Maksutov]

For some reason, I am unable to muster any s***s to give about Dehlin.

Me too. An interesting footnote but I'm several pages past him.

[_Kishkumen]

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it. One's motives and intentions will be questioned. Your friends will ask you what the hell you are doing. Certain people will show up to vent their feelings about JD to the point that it becomes nearly impossible to talk about the subject of the OP.

I apologize to everyone. I regret constructing the thread as I did. I know I didn't mean what many think I meant by doing this, but now I know better. There are certain topics that always end in the same unfortunately predictable way. It's the nature of the beast.

[_Tobin]

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it. One's motives and intentions will be questioned. Your friends will ask you what the hell you are doing. Certain people will show up to vent their feelings about JD to the point that it becomes nearly impossible to talk about the subject of the OP.

I apologize to everyone. I regret constructing the thread as I did. I know I didn't mean what many think I meant by doing this, but now I know better. There are certain topics that always end in the same unfortunately predictable way. It's the nature of the beast.

Actually, this thread has given me a lot of amusement. It has exposed some real hatred and blind biases in some of the forum participants (though I was already aware they had these problems). And it kept me from having to start a thread that JD had proposed the earth was round. I'm sure certain members here would line up against merely because I mentioned that JD was for it.

[Guest]

Whatever their motives, I think they, along with many others I admit, helped expose the church as a fraud to many members, and forced the church to deal with some of the issues, and forced many members to consider some of the very serious and egregious behavior of the corporate church. I also give him credit for setting up MS communities to members who needed a community at the time.

Can we at least agree that John did what I, and most of the rest of us here, could never do...get the church's attention?

And who cares what his motives were really? The LDS corporation is a fraud that needed/needs to be exposed sooner rather than later to stop the harm they are perpetuating on humanity. I'll be an "ite" of all who work towards that end.

I think Dehlin started out with a sincere desire to reform the church and wanted to help struggling members. However, I can understand why Honor would make those comments about his LGBT activism. Most of my Dehliniteism, as ME would accuse me of, comes from associations with MS prior to 2010. That was well before all the gay activism really started. I don't really have an opinion about that aspect of it, but can certainly understand where Honor is coming from.

Hi cwald,

I appreciate the thought and know many people that point to Dehlin as being very helpful at a point of crisis in their faith journey, either to a place of acceptance within the church or outside of it. And I can also appreciate your point that, whatever one thinks at the micro level, at a macro level movement occurred in the church when he was most active as a public persona representing a non-conforming Mormon perspective. It probably doesn't matter in the long term how much credit he could take.

A while back Equality* shared a link to the hardcore history podcast on the Anabaptists in Munster that included a lengthy discussion on Martin Luther. It strikes me that perhaps movements to effect change within entrenched and defensive institutions may require certain personalities to champion or voice the opposition.

Anyway, thank you for playing the part of the peacemaker and acknowledging all sides of the discussion throughout the thread.

* I believe it was Equality who first posted the link. If not, my apologies to whomever deserves the credit. HCH is one of my favorite podcasts since this introduction.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Kish!

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it.

Yeah - The use of "JD" does seem to have enormous impact and a rather heavy (and odd in my opinion) distractive influence on broad conversation.

I apologize to everyone.

No need to apologize to me, friend.
I thought the OP/Thread that you authored could have been an extremely interesting discussion - And, in my opinion, much of it (at least early on) was exactly that. Too bad that it made the bizarre left turn that it did.

As experience tells me, once a left turn like this one has taken place, it's almost impossible to put the brakes on, drive in reverse, and bring it back on it's intended and original course.

Especially so when one considers that the speed of travel significantly increased after the left turn. The vehicle is now lost and it most likely will never be found. We now must all walk - a loss for all - in my opinion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_I have a question]

The vehicle is now lost and it most likely will never be found. We now must all walk - a loss for all - in my opinion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

But good for our cholesterol....right?

[_honorentheos]

What's odd to me is that even suggesting John Dehlin was either not necessary or not interesting in relation to the broader subject met with dismissal and at some point a free clinical diagnosis for one's motives for doing so. The left turn was a collective decision and it's a mistake to assume the thread was derailed that way. It seems the left turn was in the travel plans from the beginning since anything that suggested moving past it was met with resistance.

Clearly, as a topic it became touchy for a lot of people on all sides. And then the touchiness got touchy. Then we got to "“F” this, the ride's over."

[_Maksutov]

What's odd to me is that even suggesting John Dehlin was either not necessary or not interesting in relation to the broader subject met with dismissal and at some point a free clinical diagnosis for one's motives for doing so. The left turn was a collective decision and it's a mistake to assume the thread was derailed that way. It seems the left turn was in the travel plans from the beginning since anything that suggested moving past it was met with resistance.

Clearly, as a topic it became touchy for a lot of people on all sides. And then the touchiness got touchy. Then we got to "f*** this, the ride's over."

Does this settle the question over whether JD is a uniter or a divider?

[_Kishkumen]

Hello, honorentheos:

I sincerely apologize for mishandling your posts. I am not going to revisit the territory and argue with you about your interpretation or my intentions. All of this is not really worth that much to me. I just ask for your forgiveness.

Best wishes,

K