The obvious question

[_fetchface]

I suppose that 'groupthink' could be another option. But then we get into the whole WHY thing again. To line their pockets? To serve God? Etc.

That's the thing about 'groupthink'. It is like thought reform, if you knew it was happening it wouldn't work. So you can't choose to be affected by groupthink in order to further a conscious goal. Our minds don't work that way.

[_mentalgymnast]

When Brigham stated unambiguously to the Utah Territorial Legislature that it was God's will that African slavery be legal in Utah was he stupid or inspired? How about when he stated that Adam was the father of our spirits? Stupid or inspired?

He was acting as an individual. I'll leave it at that.

Regards,
MG

[_just me]

When Brigham stated unambiguously to the Utah Territorial Legislature that it was God's will that African slavery be legal in Utah was he stupid or inspired? How about when he stated that Adam was the father of our spirits? Stupid or inspired?

He was acting as an individual. I'll leave it at that.

Regards,
MG

Why? Stupidity?

[_mentalgymnast]

And I think we'd agree that they know which way is up and where the wind blows.

Regards,
MG

Based on what evidence? These are strangers, leaders of a large corporation. We don't really know them at all. Some of the same guys that came out with the oral sex temple question for married couples.

Remember that one?

Did they decide to have bishops ask married women about oral sex because they were stupid or inspired? didn't they know which way was up and which way the wind blew? It appears they didn't.

Yes, I remember that. I'm interested, if Dehlin is right, to see what clarifications come out from the brethren in the next little while. I'm sure this is on their 'collective' mind. I'm patient. I'll wait. But I'd like to see some clarification...soon. I, like others, see too much ambiguity in the policy change. The policy was enacted with the premise that Bishops and SP's will rely on the Spirit in their decisions. But then we end up with the human factor and leader roulette issues. Clarification is needed...hopefully on the side of mercy rather than loaded up with justice...to help leaders make decisions that can straddle the line between those two virtues.

And it is a fine line.

I think that we need to remember that at the base of all this, is the fact that the Church sees SSM as being 'sinful' and 'apostate' behavior and that they are having to wrap everything else around that.

Regards,
MG

[_fetchface]

He was acting as an individual. I'll leave it at that.

Are you creating a third option here or just trying to avoid saying that these decisions were stupid?

Because I'll tell you right now that it is not possible that Brigham and the entire Utah Territorial Legislature (most of them GAs of the church) made a stupid decision together. I mean, I could understand if it were Brigham acting alone but not all those people together. Simply not possible.

[_sock puppet]

IMHO, this "policy" has Oaks' grubby, legalistic, fingerprints all over it and while I can't answer your question as to why, Runtu, I think I'm safe in believing that none of the other eunuchs in the Q15 would dare defy him.

Yep. And that's why it looks more legal coming out of a supposed ecclesiastical body--it's because Oaks in particular and to a lesser extent Christofferson come across, in discharging their ecclesiastical duties, as legalistic.

[_Runtu]

MG, you've inspired me to write my response as a blog post, so forgive me if I don't get to it until later.

[_Equality]

Perhaps they are a group of sociopaths in suits, neither stupid nor credulous.

You're serious?

Regards,
MG

I am just following the evidence, which strongly suggests the possibility.

[_mentalgymnast]

Why? Stupidity?

I think Brigham Young did and said some stupid things. For example, the handcart fiasco. He was human. At times arrogant. Arrogance can lead to making less than stellar decisions and pronouncements. I think that we need to remember, again, that Joseph Smith was very transparent in teaching that revelation can be from God, the devil, or from the mind of man. He was susceptible. Brigham Young was too.

So are we.

But over the years, I think we've seen a movement towards collective decision making. The likelihood of getting things right increases when more hearts and minds are seeking the will of God. You would think that it's much more difficult for a collective body to get something wrong that it is for an individual.

Not that that is always the case.

Regards,
MG

[_Ceeboo]

MG,

My heart breaks for you.

The position that you find yourself in - by no fault of your own - is extremely unfortunate.


Sorry, bro.

Peace,
Ceeboo