The obvious question

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_sock puppet
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _sock puppet »

Water Dog wrote:I think where they goofed though is not realizing people would see through it and be upset. I think they thought it would be clever and marketable. They are used to being surrounded by yes-men and fallout really just didn't occur to them. Everybody supported Romney after all. Members have widely opposed same sex marriage. What's the big deal? So, it's a combination of well-meaning ignorance combined with profound incompetence and lack of situational awareness.

Their problem is that all of the FP/12 are hard core LDS (white area) thinker. They only hear repeats of their own words, both from local leaders and addressed congregants after a meeting and those staffers and 70s that support them in their administrative roles. The FP/12 know that there are vocal opponents (those that the FP/12 think in a black area), but consider them few, far between and a threat--like John Dehlin and Kate Kelly. Who cares about them? We ex people that think and vocalize it.

The problem is this whole debacle with the Nov 5 Policy shows that FP/12 did not realize that but for hard core LDS like themselves, there is a vast gray area now in LDS thinking, particularly now on gay rights issues and over which those under 45 in particular are sympathetic. The LDS thinking in this morally enlightened era is more evenly diffuse across the spectrum than the FP/12 have heretofore thought--they hearken for the good old days when luke warmers would be spewn out of Jesus' mouth.

This black-and-white drawn policy against parents that LG live together is being met with severe reaction by the grayer area LDS, and there are more of them than the FP/12 thought there were and they are more wedded to egalitarianism than any prior generations of LDS. Surprising to the hierarchically steeped FP/12 is also how many well educated gray-area LDS are marching with their feet out of the LDS church. But, I think that the visceral reaction by gray area LDS has as much (or more) to do with infusing into the mechanics and impact of the policy an Original Sin concept onto the children living in those households (the sins of the father or mother making the child ineligible for infant naming/blessing, baptism, Aaronic priesthood ordinances, etc.), which is contrary to a basic LDS tenet dating back at least to the Wentworth Letter.

This mypoic view that the FP/12 have of where the LDS population is in 2015 is exacerbated by the lawyers and business types among their ranks. They often can't see the difference in those and their supposed ecclesiastical skill sets; it's much easier for the heart physician-apostles to keep their prior occupational skill sets differentiated--they know that in the temple and elsewhere now while on FP/12 assignments that they don't have a scalpel in their hands nor are they in the cath lab.

The FP/12 are becoming ever more so Pharisaical than before, even though elements have been creeping into the LDS leadership even since the 1830s.
_Tim the Enchanter
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _Tim the Enchanter »

mentalgymnast wrote:But over the years, I think we've seen a movement towards collective decision making. The likelihood of getting things right increases when more hearts and minds are seeking the will of God. You would think that it's much more difficult for a collective body to get something wrong that it is for an individual.

Not that that is always the case.

Regards,
MG


One of the reasons a prophet was so important to the restored church was to avoid reliance on councils (such as those at Nicea) to pronounce God's will. There needed to be one man, a prophet, to give the world God' will, not a group of men sitting in council debating theology and what God wanted. Was the Council that produced the Nicean Creed more likely to get theology right because they sat in council rather than relied on the voice of one person? Aren't Mormons still opposed to theological councils? Are you suggesting the 15 have become a council to avoid the traps of having, you know, a prophet who can speak the will and mind of the Lord?
There are some who call me...Tim.
_consiglieri
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _consiglieri »

Runtu wrote:To me, this policy has become, intentionally or not, a test whether people are going to abdicate their moral responsibility and give it unquestioningly to an authority figure.


I like to call it the Mountain Meadows Scenario.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_I have a question
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _I have a question »

mentalgymnast wrote:I, like others, see too much ambiguity in the policy change. The policy was enacted with the premise that Bishops and SP's will rely on the Spirit in their decisions.


I must be reading a different policy to you.

Please can you quote the parts of the policy that you see as 'ambiguous'?
Can you quote where we see that the premise behind enacting the policy is to rely on the spirit?


Here is the text of the announcement from the church regarding treatment of members in gay and lesbian marriages. This new language is on top of and in addition to the new definition of apostasy that now includes "same gender marriage".

"Effective immediately, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a new policy related to the children of gay couples, married or unmarried:
"Children of a Parent Living in a Same-Gender Relationship
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing.
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:
A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2. The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage."
Last edited by Guest on Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_RockSlider
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _RockSlider »

Tim the Enchanter wrote:Are you suggesting the 15 have become a council to avoid the traps of having, you know, a prophet who can speak the will and mind of the Lord?


Add to that council: President Newsroom, Polling social scientists, financial advisers, McConkie law firm.

The relatively new one that signed the letter read to the church after the Supreme Court ruling.
_RockSlider
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _RockSlider »

consiglieri wrote:
Runtu wrote:To me, this policy has become, intentionally or not, a test whether people are going to abdicate their moral responsibility and give it unquestioningly to an authority figure.


I like to call it the Mountain Meadows Scenario.


oh my, you kill me sometimes
_Res Ipsa
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _Res Ipsa »

consiglieri wrote:
Runtu wrote:To me, this policy has become, intentionally or not, a test whether people are going to abdicate their moral responsibility and give it unquestioningly to an authority figure.


I like to call it the Mountain Meadows Scenario.


More like the Kobiyashi Maru. :mrgreen:
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_sock puppet
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _sock puppet »

RockSlider wrote:
Runtu wrote:That's what is meant by "God's ways are not man's ways." That is the universal excuse for defending a religious belief or practice that makes no rational sense.


Its important for the cog-dis relief to add ... "and this is not important to my salvation"

But according to LDS teachings, it might be very important to the salvation of an 8-17 year old child of a gaycohabitating parent.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_sock puppet
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _sock puppet »

Water Dog wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:I think you can put all the spin you want on this...Waterdog and others...but when it comes right down to it you have to use the old saying, "Stupid is, stupid does", as a yardstick. The brethren are not stupid.

So your argument is, they must be right, or led by God on this matter, because, they aren't stupid? How do you know they aren't stupid? Stupid in what way? Is Obama stupid? Is Boehner stupid? Is Bernie stupid? Is Trump stupid? Was Hillary stupid with her email server? Does that decision make her stupid? Was Carli Fiorina a stupid person when she saddled HP with Compaq? Did that bad decision make her stupid? Perhaps Pope Francis is stupid to preach tolerance? Was going in Iraq a mistake? President Hinckley supported it. Did his support make him stupid?


mentalgymnast wrote:Individuals can be stupid at times. All of us. My query has to do more with a collective body of 15 men who have been honed and challenged throughout their lives in the church. Intelligent churchmen. Each one of them, as an individual, can do something dumb or stupid at times. It's part of being human. But we're talking about all of them...collectively...doing something REALLY stupid, from the point of view of folks that are disgruntled. What is the likelihood of that?

Now, they could ALL be mistaken in their view that they are speaking the mind and will of the Lord in this matter...but then that leads us back to collective stupidity(which is highly unlikely) and/or groupthink based on false premises. I suppose that 'groupthink' could be another option. But then we get into the whole WHY thing again. To line their pockets? To serve God? Etc.

And that becomes a personal decision that each of us has to make.

Regards,
MG


So was the FP stupid or uninspired when the pronounced 8/17/1949 that the ban against blacks getting the priesthood was a direct commandment from the Lord, and doctrine?
_Chap
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Re: The obvious question

Post by _Chap »

I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:I, like others, see too much ambiguity in the policy change. The policy was enacted with the premise that Bishops and SP's will rely on the Spirit in their decisions.


I must be reading a different policy to you.

Please can you quote the parts of the policy that you see as 'ambiguous'?
Can you quote where we see that the premise behind enacting the policy is to rely on the spirit?
...


Look, cut poor old MG some slack here, OK?

We are in, like 'the strain gauges taped to my shelf are in overload' mode at the moment, and this is just about the only button left to press, apart from 'taken out of context', which really isn't applicable here.

You can't expect him to just come out and say 'OK, you got me. It's a crock.'
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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