The CCC wrote:It just makes economic sense to be as self reliant for our energy needs as we can be. Every dollar I save is a dollar I can put to other uses or just hold onto.
Isn't it amazing that some people (including, apparently, Tobin) reject even that argument in their bloody minded determination to avoid giving any ground whatsoever to the idea that there could be benefits to ameliorating AGW and reducing fossil fuel dependence?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
I consider myself to be an environmentalist, but I also know how to do a spread-sheet. If it doesn't make economic sense there is no saving it. I've been a fan of Amory Lovins for years now.
The CCC wrote:I consider myself to be an environmentalist, but I also know how to do a spread-sheet. If it doesn't make economic sense there is no saving it. I've been a fan of Amory Lovins for years now.
The world needs more people like you who understand that responsible environmentalism, in the long run, saves us much more money than it costs us.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
The CCC wrote:It only takes a very small amount of cyanide to kill a person, but it is a vital element of your life. Vitamin B-12.
That is true only of synthetic vitamin B-12 containing cyanocobalamin.
Action item:
If you have any vitamin B-12 supplements, check the ingredients label right now to see what form of vitamin B-12 they contain. If they contain cyanocobalamin, throw them out!
Cyanocobalamin is a cheap, synthetic chemical made in a laboratory. It's virtually impossible for you to find this form in nature. Low-end vitamin manufacturers use it because it can be bought in bulk and added to products with claims that they "contain vitamin B-12!" What they don't tell you is that the vitamin is bound to a toxic, poisonous cyanide molecule that must then be removed from your body by your liver. Cyanocobalamin is also up to 100 times cheaper than the higher quality methylcobalamin which we'll talk about below.
As Wikipedia explains: "A common synthetic form of the vitamin, cyanocobalamin, does not occur in nature, but is used in many pharmaceuticals and supplements, and as a food additive, because of its lower cost. In the body it is converted to the physiological forms, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin, leaving behind the cyanide..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12)
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is fairly common among vegetarians and vegans because natural vitamin B-12 ls not found in any vegetable product. The easiest, cheapest and safest way to avoid vitamin B-12 deficiency is to include at least some meat, dairy products, eggs or fish in your diet. It usually does not take much of those animal products to get enough of that vitamin, but as explained in the first link above, even some meat eaters can experience a vitamin B-12 deficiency. If you absolutely need a B12 supplement for any reason, it is probably best to avoid the cheap stuff, if at all possible.
I suggest following some of the other links provided within the above links. There is a lot of interesting and valuable information there about the various types of vitamin B12 and their uses.
ETA; Upon further reading I found that there is some controversy about how important it is to avoid cyanocobalamin based supplements. When used as directed, even they will probably not do significant harm to most people. However, some people (cigarette smokers, for example) are more sensitive to cyanide poisoning than others, and methylcobalamin is probably more effective per microgram than cyanocobalamin. See the Wikipedia article linked above.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
The CCC wrote:Eating a well balanced diet from a large variety of foods. Don't smoke, don't drink alcohol to excess, do get plenty of sleep. We'll do fine.
exactly! The reason it took so long to discover the very existence of vitamins is that they are required in such small amounts that anyone eating a well balanced diet consisting of a good variety of fresh foods was almost guaranteed to get all the vitamins needed.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
As Tobin seems to be on an MD break, I just want to summarize where we were in our conversation in case we resume some day. We made some progress, as Tobin acknowledged the "earth will be fine" under any of the current proposals to reduce CO2 emissions. That means that "earth will be fine" is irrelevant when discussing global warming.
That sets up the discussion as one of costs and benefits of taking certain proposed actions v. BAU. Tobin argued that transition away from fossil fuels will raise energy costs, which will disproportionately hurt poor people. I think that's a good springboard into a discussion of the economic impacts, but we haven't really begun discussing that.
Where we were falls within the "costs of BAU" part of the equation. Tobin clearly doesn't accept the "consensus" estimates of climate sensitivity from adding CO2. He's raised a few issues, which make unclear to me whether he thinks adding CO2 will have no affect on atmospheric temperature or just that any effect will be too small to be concerned about. One of his points is that CO2 is a "lagging indicator" of temperature. While that was true in the past, he hasn't shown why CO2 can't be a "leading indicator" in modern times when humans are dumping large quantities of CO2 into the atmosphere. He also argues that water vapor is the strongest greenhouse gas and, because there is so much less CO2 than water vapor, CO2 can't cause a significant change in the greenhouse effect. I had just asked him whether methane is a stronger greenhouse gas than CO2, to which he has yet responded. The answer is "yes," methane is a much stronger greenhouse gas than CO2. And there is much, much less of it in the atmosphere. So, the effect of adding a greenhouse gas to the atmosphere doesn't just depend upon the quantity of the gas -- it also depends on the physical properties of the atoms or molecules that make up the gas. (2/3 of the atmosphere is Nitrogen, but it has no greenhouse effect at all.) We could go from here to the evidence of the effect of adding additional CO2 to the atmosphere...
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
There is really nothing to respond to here Brad. Most of the respondents are talking about vitamins and you failed to answer my questions about significant numbers.
I'll just note in response to your question that CO2 is measured in parts per MILLION and CH4 is measured in parts per BILLION. CO2 and CH4 are not a million (or a billion) times more powerful than water vapor as greenhouse gases. That is why it is so important to understand how much of it is really in the atmosphere.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
