Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _moksha »

Mittens wrote:God the Father was never a man

So if God the Father is not a man, is He at least ambigously humanoid?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _subgenius »

Themis wrote:
So? The problem with the story is not that towers were built, or that ancient people might be stupid/ignorant enough to think this is reasonable. The problem is more why God would be upset and magically make everyone speak different languages. It's obvious myth to explain why different groups spoke differently...

you seem to have overlooked the rather overt meaning of how God views the arrogance of man - a theme more likely given the character of the Old Testament God.
(the tower also appears in the Sumerian mythology and even the Quran)


"The Skyscraper Index is a whimsical concept put forward by Andrew Lawrence, a property analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein in January 1999, which showed that the world's tallest buildings have risen on the eve of economic downturns. Business cycles and skyscraper construction correlate in such a way that investment in skyscrapers peaks when cyclical growth is exhausted and the economy is ready for recession. Mark Thornton's Skyscraper Index Model successfully sent a signal of the Late-2000s financial crisis at the beginning of August 2007"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyscraper_Index
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _The CCC »

Joseph claimed revelation from God like all his other claims that they were real and that they lived in the mid-west US. Again Opps :lol:[/quote]

No he doesn't. The Church has a long well established method for determining what revelation is and campfire tales aren't it.
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _Themis »

The CCC wrote:
No he doesn't. The Church has a long well established method for determining what revelation is and campfire tales aren't it.


Your problem is that it is much more then a campfire tale. It is considered revelation and in the standard works. D&C 116. Opps :razz:

I thought you were a long time believing member. I don't know any long time believing member who didn't know this.
42
_SteelHead
_Emeritus
Posts: 8261
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 1:40 am

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _SteelHead »

The question of the op betrays the premise. If god can be self existing, if we are handing out special exceptions, why can the universe not be self existing?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _Themis »

SteelHead wrote:The question of the op betrays the premise. If god can be self existing, if we are handing out special exceptions, why can the universe not be self existing?


NO NO NO NO. Only ONE exception allowed. Don't make me mad. :mad:
42
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _The CCC »

Themis wrote:
The CCC wrote:
No he doesn't. The Church has a long well established method for determining what revelation is and campfire tales aren't it.


Your problem is that it is much more then a campfire tale. It is considered revelation and in the standard works. D&C 116. Opps :razz:

I thought you were a long time believing member. I don't know any long time believing member who didn't know this.


SEE https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1994/01/i-ha ... n?lang=eng
SEE http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Garden_of_Eden
SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/G ... n_Missouri
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _Themis »

The CCC wrote:
Themis wrote:Your problem is that it is much more then a campfire tale. It is considered revelation and in the standard works. D&C 116. Opps :razz:

I thought you were a long time believing member. I don't know any long time believing member who didn't know this.


SEE https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1994/01/i-ha ... n?lang=eng
SEE http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Garden_of_Eden
SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/G ... n_Missouri


You need to make an argument and quote from these sources to show that they back up your argument. Then provide the links. This way we should all know what your argument is. Just providing links doesn't really do it. I don't know if you are providing them to support my claims. I assume not since you seem to disagree earlier in the thread, but then you provide three links which all support my position and not the one you seem to have earlier.

The first link says this

It wasn’t until May 1838 that revelation (D&C 116) identified Adam-ondi-Ahman, a site near the Garden of Eden, to be in Daviess County, Missouri, some seventy miles from present-day Kansas City. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4 vols., New York City: Macmillan, 1992, 1:19–20.) Other revelations referring to Adam-ondi-Ahman were D&C 78:15–16 and D&C 107:53–57.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “In accord with the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, we teach that the Garden of Eden was on the American continent located where the City of Zion, or the New Jerusalem, will be built. When Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they eventually dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, situated in what is now Daviess County, Missouri. … We are committed to the fact that Adam dwelt on [the] American continent.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., comp. Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City:Bookcraft, 1956, 3:74. Compare Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957–75, 2:93–95, 4:19–24; and Alvin R. Dyer, in Conference Report, Oct. 1968, pp. 108–9.)


https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1994/01/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

As you can see it directly supports what I have been saying about Joseph claiming revelation as to where Adam and Eve lived and that the church considers it revelation from then to now. Same with the other two links.

Latter-day revelation specifies that as a mortal, Adam lived at Adam-ondi-Ahman in what is now Daviess County, Missouri (D&C 107:53-56;116:1;117:8).


http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Garden_of_Eden

Since Spring Hill was named by the Lord as the place where Adam will come to visit his people, it has generally been presumed to be the Adam-ondi-Ahman of Adam's mortal meeting with his posterity
It is perhaps significant the Lord named this site because of a future event—the pre-millennial assembly of Adam and his faithful descendants prior to the second coming of Christ. It has generally been presumed that "Spring Hill," Missouri is thus the Adam-ondi-Ahman of Adam's mortal meeting with his posterity (D&C 107, above) and the pre-millennial visit (D&C 116), which is certainly possible.
An alternate interpretation would be the Lord has given the Adam-ondi-Ahman name to a second site (i.e., at Spring Hill, Missouri) in memorial of the first great meeting of the whole righteous human race. That first meeting, at which Adam presided, would then be a foreshadowing of the greater meeting of all the righteous prior to Christ's triumphant return in glory. This reading might better explain why D&C 116 bothers to explain why the Lord is giving the name to the site. If the site was already called Adam-ondi-Ahman, perhaps there would be little need for the Lord to renew its name. One could see this as analogous to the site "Jerusalem." There is, in LDS doctrine, to be a "New Jerusalem" built on the American continent in the last days.[3] Yet, this does not mean the "New Jerusalem" site is the same as the Jerusalem of David and Jesus in the Old World, or that the old Jerusalem has ceased to exist.
On the other hand, Doctrine and Covenants 117 also seems to associate the Missouri Adam-ondi-Ahman with Adam's dwelling place in mortality:
7 Therefore, will I not make solitary places to bud and to blossom, and to bring forth in abundance? saith the Lord.
8 Is there not room enough on the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and on the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt, that you should covet that which is but the drop, and neglect the more weighty matters?
9 Therefore, come up hither unto the land of my people, even Zion. (DC 117:7-9)
The association of Adam-ondi-Ahman with the "land where Adam dwelt," and Adam's presence at Adam-Ondi-Ahman prior to his death have led most Latter-day Saints to conclude they are one and the same. (However, this verse raises more questions than it answers—there are no mountains of note in Missouri. So, was the geography more expansive than Joseph or the early saints presumed?)


http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Garden_of_Eden_in_Missouri
42
_Mittens
_Emeritus
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _Mittens »

Zakuska wrote:
Mittens wrote:God the Father was never a man


The Bible says otherwise...

Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.



Don't Mormon teach Exodus 15 is a reference to Jesus "Jehovah" :lol:
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Did a man or the Self-Existing God create the Universe ?

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper wrote:Real HONEST science is observation coupled with repeatability. Anything less than that is opinion no matter the credentials.


Huckleberry wrote:That is why river erosion tells time.


LittleNipper wrote:And "Climate Change" is demonstrating a different explanation. Change can happen very, very, very, quickly ---- so the Flood would have a large impact on climate, as well as, topography and geography and fossil formation and species obliteration. That is why I do no fret over the doom and gloom pronouncements coming from evolution indoctrinated politicians. They do not fathom that GOD and NOT US is technically in control.


Scientists have calculated the length of time for permafrost to sink deep into the earth's crust. Using thermal conductivity, a basic property of matter, the time it would take for permafrost to reach the measured permafrost depth of 1,778 feet at Prudhoe Bay is over 500,000 years. If it is argued that god created the world 6,000 years ago with such deep permafrost already in place, then there can be no explanation for the multitude of fossils found in these frozen arctic regions.

Oh and permafrost, where soil and rock are always below freezing point, exists at depths below 5,400 feet in Siberia.

Is LittleNipper a tool for circumcision?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
Post Reply