Who is worse in your eyes?

[_Jesse Pinkman]

Brigham. Hands down. MMM was, if not by his direct command, the fruit of his spiritual leadership. There is a lot of innocent blood on that man's hands.

Amen.

[_MsJack]

100 - 140 innocent people were murdered by Young's lieutenants under his watch and he did nothing to bring the perpetrators to justice---even said that it was God taking vengeance. Nothing Joseph Smith did compares.

[_Dr Exiled]

I'd have to say BY over Joseph Smith too because of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He also caused to be killed several innocents during the prior Mormon reformation hysteria.

Joseph Smith certainly had mass murder in mind when he requested from Congress 100,000 or so troops to be put under his control prior to his murder in 1844. However, Joseph Smith didn't get the troops, was killed too early in his career, and never had the chance to be a mass murderer like bloody brigham.

[_grindael]

Two peas in a pod. Young was the natural progression of Smith. He, in essence, became Smith in Utah.

[_grindael]

100 - 140 innocent people were murdered by Young's lieutenants under his watch and he did nothing to bring the perpetrators to justice---even said that it was God taking vengeance. Nothing Joseph Smith did compares.

Smith got every one of those men and women and children killed at Haun's Mills. Just as despicable. Then, he blamed them for NOT "listening to counsel". I kid you not.

[_MsJack]

Smith got every one of those men and women and children killed at Haun's Mills. Just as despicable. Then, he blamed them for NOT "listening to counsel". I kid you not.

Even if you can lay Haun's Mill at Smith's feet (I wouldn't), the death count at MMM was still five times higher.

[_sock puppet]

Smith got every one of those men and women and children killed at Haun's Mills. Just as despicable. Then, he blamed them for NOT "listening to counsel". I kid you not.

Even if you can lay Haun's Mill at Smith's feet (I wouldn't), the death count at MMM was still five times higher.

The death count is certainly an important factor in the comparison. JSJr started the mischief, and for that he gets extra points towards the comparison in my book. BY was certainly more inconoclastic, used the vehicle that JSJr created to feather his (Brigham's) own bed, and seems much less compassionate towards others. But in the end, I count them both as sociopaths.

[_honorentheos]

Smith got every one of those men and women and children killed at Haun's Mills. Just as despicable. Then, he blamed them for NOT "listening to counsel". I kid you not.

Even if you can lay Haun's Mill at Smith's feet (I wouldn't), the death count at MMM was still five times higher.

I'm with you on this.

There is a certain ethical similarity between Joseph's rhetoric, the purpose of Zion's Camp, and the Mormon War in Missouri to the Utah War and Brigham's fortress Zion. But in Smith's case there was mutual hostile action and a lot of Mormon women and children died of exposure due no more to Smith's actions than have ever died because they believed the words of some authority that was hated by others. Had Rigdon not given his infamous speech, would so many have died? Or had George Albert not ridden through Southern Utah, would the MMM been avoided? I don't know. But I don't see as direct a line between Smith's actions and the deaths that followed without so many others on both sides being given over to their most base instincts. And that being said knowing some of my own ancestors and their children died of exposure having been ran out of their house in the dead of winter at night.

Evil is not a word I use lightly. What happened at Mountain Meadows seems only possible when the worst of human behavior is magnified through the leadership of a vile and depraved mind, and people feel they no longer are responsible for their own actions giving license to cross lines unimaginable. MMM meets my criteria for being evil. And Young bears the lions share of responsibility for it and full responsibility for the cover-up that followed as you pointed out earlier.

[_DarkHelmet]

Tough call. It's like picking between L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige. In both Mormonism and Scientology the founders were charismatic con-men who somehow built a loyal following based on bizarre beliefs, and when they died it left a power vacuum in the organization that was seized by opportunistic tyrants. In both cases I believe the tyrants are/were more evil than the founders.

[_Sanctorian]

Who do you find more dispicable? Joseph Smith or Brigham Young?

Definitely Brigham but only because he helped the church survive. Had he not made it as far west as SLC, the church likely would have died off or stayed small to the level of RLDS. I think it's despicable he could walk that goddam far.