Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

[_Rosebud]

I don't think you missed my meaning.

If you did, this is it: do not ignore available data in an attempt to reconcile the information you have access to with your previous perceptions. To do so is to make light of a very serious situation. You owe yourself and the victims more.

[_Mary]

I don't think you missed my meaning.

If you did, this is it: do not ignore available data in an attempt to reconcile the information you have access to with your previous perceptions. To do so is to make light of a very serious situation. You owe yourself and the victims more.

Nope...you've lost me. Are you talking about Ron here?

[_Res Ipsa]

Rosebud, Ron's daughter is now married If I recall correctly. Look, if he is doing all this without the consent and approval of his children then I might agree with you. If, however, he has the full support of his kids, then that is a different matter. Sometimes, there is catharsis in *getting it all out there* for all the individuals involved, including Mickelsen, and if he is innocent then he should be suing Ron surely?

This notion that anyone who is accused of anything by anyone has some obligation to hire a lawyer and engage in expensive litigation or else he's guilty of the accusations is ludicrous. AmyJo publicly accused me of being a paid LDS stoolie. If I don't sue her, am I admitting that I am? That's just nuts.

Mickelson would be an idiot to sue Karren. Karren's got an unrestricted microphone to broadcast his version of events, with a former Mormon website providing the platform. If his story could catch on anywhere, it would be among a group of people predisposed to dislike the LDS church. How's he doing? Is this being talked about on Reddit/exmormon? Nothing since the Karren's first release. How about RfM? Nothing since the first release. I googled around and can't find any other forum that's talking about this. Is there any forum on the net that is talking about this more than the handful of us here? Right now, his story is having zero effect on Mickelsen. He's under no obligation to undergo the expense of a defamation lawsuit in which he could win no damages because he's not being hurt by Karren.

I feel very bad for the three kids, especially the daughter. It looks to me like the adults in this divorce behaved badly and the children paid a high price. I can understand some of the behavior, but that doesn't mean I approve of it. There is evidence that Ron tried to poison the children against their mother from the outset of the divorce. There is evidence that the wife's family brought the oldest son into some kind of discussion about providing affidavits against Ron. There is evidence that the mother failed to be supportive of her daughter when she made the abuse allegations. Everything that I read and heard during my divorce is that dragging the kids into conflict between the spouses is damaging to the kids. The adults in this cases didn't protect the children, and the result was a shattered family.

I've tried to imagine what I would do if I'd been convinced that my soon to be ex-wife's father had molested my daughter, that my soon to be ex-wife had denied it and claimed I was making things up, and that, with no coaching from me, my daughter one day told me a detailed story about being molested by her grandfather. I can imagine reassuring her. I can imagine taking her to a therapist as soon as possible. What I can't imagine is immediately instructing her to tell her mother. That directly exposes the daughter to trauma and conflict in the divorce. Rather than shielding his daughter from the divorce conflict, he sent her in like a guided missile to get back at his wife and her family. In my opinion, it was selfish and inexcusable.

I see the same thing now. Tell me: how do Karren's current actions help at all the victims of this whole tragedy? His children aren't speaking out. They're not trying to tell their own stories. It's all about Ron, and it's all for Ron. And it doesn't sound to me like he cares who he hurts in the process.

[_AmyJo]

Rosebud, Ron's daughter is now married If I recall correctly. Look, if he is doing all this without the consent and approval of his children then I might agree with you. If, however, he has the full support of his kids, then that is a different matter. Sometimes, there is catharsis in *getting it all out there* for all the individuals involved, including Mickelsen, and if he is innocent then he should be suing Ron surely?

This notion that anyone who is accused of anything by anyone has some obligation to hire a lawyer and engage in expensive litigation or else he's guilty of the accusations is ludicrous. AmyJo publicly accused me of being a paid LDS stoolie. If I don't sue her, am I admitting that I am? That's just nuts.

That is so not true. What I said is there are stoolies of the morgue whether paid or not who publicly flagellate and humiliate anyone who dares go up against a General Authority or the church on any matter whether pedophilia, church history, gays, feminism, the list goes on ad nauseum.

LDS pays some stoolies to do its dirty work for the corporation. Then it has lots of volunteers who do so cheerfully as they feel they are protecting God himself against the heathen Gentiles.

How you see yourself is up to you. Just because we don't agree on Mr. Karran's veracity doesn't make you a stoolie.

On the other hand you seem to go out of your way to label me I've noticed. What's with the name calling?

I believe Karran, yes I do. Until I see something else or rather someone else comes along with a compelling reason not to believe what he and his family have been through I have no reason to believe he would make his family experience up. He doesn't have the resume indicative of someone who is lying. On the other hand, there are lots of shadow lurkers like the mysterious attorney who comes out of nowhere but Salt Lake City for sure to throw her fiery darts at him. And it turns out that she is the one with the skeletons in her closet - all on the public record. Her lack of integrity and character speak for itself.

Ron Karran has no such history on his part that would indicate he is a fraud or has a criminal history.

In fact his background indicates to me he is exposing a fraud rather than covering for one, and wants absolution for himself and his family. Maybe this is his life calling? We all have one. What's yours?

Leaving LDS Inc doesn't stop when we walk out the door. It leaves carnage in its wake, that much I know with a certainty. The church is a cult. It doesn't let people leave peacefully. It sets out to destroy those who leave by sullying their good names and reputations. The more vocal they are to begin with, the worse the attacks on their character.

Like Valleen Tippetts Avery as one example. She was persecuted just for writing a historical factual book on the life of Emma Hale Smith. Sandra Tanner another, and her husband. John Dehlin. Sonia Johnson. The list just grows and grows and grows of folk heroes who had the cajones to call a spade a spade and tell the church where to shove it.

I have no animosity against the LDS church. Objectivity is the best offense, because LDS Inc can't stand up to scrutiny of the truth - historical or otherwise.

In this case, it's a coverup of child molestation by a General Authority. Not the first time, and it likely isn't going to be the last. It's a story that needs telling though, because it's a part of the history of the church in high places - not just a personal family matter.

I believe that's why Karran is making it public, because of the high profile name of his former FIL. It deserves to be aired in the public record. You can cry foul all you want, but it won't stop the flood waters now that the dam has broke.

[_Res Ipsa]

AmyJo, you have a short memory. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41139&start=84#p955902 Besides, my post wasn't about you. I just cited an example to show the silliness of using the fact that Mickelsen hasn't sued Karren as evidence that Mickelsen is guilty of child molestation.

Please quote me calling you names.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

Then it has lots of volunteers who do so cheerfully as they feel they are protecting God himself against the heathen Gentiles.

This is the nature of the LDS culture. It is something I have always resented and never understood. I think it is very unChristian and immature to "tattle" on others.

[_AmyJo]

AmyJo, you have a short memory. http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 84#p955902 Besides, my post wasn't about you. I just cited an example to show the silliness of using the fact that Mickelsen hasn't sued Karren as evidence that Mickelsen is guilty of child molestation.

Please quote me calling you names.

For starters I confess I confused you with a different poster on the prior post to which you just responded now. Nonetheless, I checked your reference point and what I said was I wonder whether you are a paid stoolie because it sure seems like you are out to find fault with Karran, and by extension me, by simple virtue of the fact I stand up for the guy because I happen to believe he is telling the truth.

Saying that I wonder whether you are a stoolie is different than telling you that you are. I can have my doubts about you just like you have your doubts about Ronald Karran, and by extension moi.

As for Tobin, I doubt very much he gets paid to be a Mormon lackey. He comes across as a volunteer who's only too happy to free lance his services. Albeit he has gone into deep [mole] hiding.

LDS Inc has moles - that much is a given. Whoever they are, they do troll threads. I don't believe you are one after seeing more of your posts. At first I honestly couldn't tell you apart from Tobin other than your usernames - because in all honesty you were shadowing his posts on most of his replies and his were nasty retorts to me - which led to his being relegated to Telestial - but he has taken a leave of absence instead of posting there. Perhaps he prefers the nether world to Telestial.

Your remarks don't come anywhere near his level - which is to your credit I must say.

[Guest]

[deleted]

[_AmyJo]

Then it has lots of volunteers who do so cheerfully as they feel they are protecting God himself against the heathen Gentiles.

This is the nature of the LDS culture. It is something I have always resented and never understood. I think it is very unChristian and immature to "tattle" on others.

It makes you wonder what it is they're really protecting? They're only too eager to persecute their own to be any damn good for the "building up of Zion." I had a good friend back in my NYC days who was a NYC firefighter who converted to Mormonism from Catholicism.

He used to say to me he knew the church was either 100% true or 100% false because of how much the members persecuted each other. He'd never seen so much hatefulness by church members directed at other church members in all his life as he did/does at the Mormon church. I imagine he stayed in the church since he married a TBM divorcee who I believe is still dyed in the wool to this day.

He had his misgivings though.

He was also an oddball, for a firefighter. I had to change my phone number several times during those years because he used to leave weird, sometimes scary phone messages at work and at home. Sometimes in the middle of the night, including after he was married. It totally creeped me out. He was like a stalker. I didn't consider him dangerous, though. Just demented.

I figured growing up in NYC and going to an all boys Catholic high school where he lived made him obsessive about women. He asked me once if polygamy were still legal would I be his second wife? LOL. He was that crazy. It seemed harmless enough until the weird phone calls began and didn't stop, including well after I'd left church activity.

[Schreech]

Again, if Ron has gone to his ecclesiastical authorities and was met with a wall, if he has gone to the police and met with a wall, if he has gone to his ex's family and met with not only a wall but a list of pretty destructive and inaccurate affidavits then he is going to be angry.

Maybe he let that anger and hurt drive him over and against the best interests of his kids. Maybe.

The fact that he tried to get all Mormons off and out of a court house because he didn't trust the extent of influence that an apostle and 70 could have shows that he believed rightly or wrongly, the system to be corrupt with too much influence from the church. He's also going against a juggernaut here. A wealthy juggernaut.

So one day you go to work as normal, and you receive divorce papers, the kids are rushed off as if you are some kind of danger to them, and a while heap of affidavits are composed showing you to be a pretty gruesome person, awful father and terrible husband. All of which J... recognises as unnecessary (see taped conversation with son).

Micklesen and Scott's involvement seem like a church heirarchy involving themself in a bad marriage... why? Because Ron really was the dangerous abusive asshole he was being portrayed as? There were many victims here, but Ron must be included in that number. He gets the kids. Don't you think that is crazy? There's this abusive asshole who actually gets the kids, despite the strange number of affidavits produced to destroy him. He seems to have done a pretty decent job with them. They all seem to be good kids.

He says the way the divorce was handled and his fil's abuse of his daughter, and possibly his own daughter led to the strange way in which it was handled. He believes this. He may be wrong, but it's what he believes. Maybe, just maybe, he isn't the monster everyone believes him to be. I have Facebook friends who have vouched for his good character and his strengths and abilities as a father.

If he is taking all this to the court of public opinion, he is probably doing so as a last resort. Maybe that will be enough. Maybe his daughter will be listened to. We don't know what is going on behind the scenes here, but I hope that they get some sense of closure and justice here.

RI what you're saying about Mickelsen's lack of response makes sense.