How is an apostle's witness different, special?

[_Sophocles]

I grew up believing that all apostles had experienced personal visitations from the savior. I learned somewhere along the way that's what "apostle" meant. And it was a big deal for me when I learned that wasn't the case.

I think on some level I always understood that the indoctrination I went through growing up in Mormonism wasn't grounded in anything real, like evidence. That the spiritual experiences I was having that convinced me that God was real and Mormonism was true could only take me so far. As important as they were to me personally, I couldn't be sure that they actually meant anything, or that it wasn't possible to manufacture or invoke identical experiences under a false paradigm.

That's why God, in his wisdom (I believed) always revealed himself physically to a chosen few. I didn't quite understand how it worked, but I was convinced that as long as there were some people on the planet who knew that God was real the way that we know other things, through physical, measurable evidence, then it was okay for the rest of us to rely on faith. Maybe I would never get to that point of having my calling and election made sure and seeing Jesus with my own eyes, but as long as there were people who had, and they knew that they were leading the rest of us in the right direction, then it was okay.

But there are no such people. Everyone is relying on the same warm fuzzies as me, and as good as they might feel, as right as they might feel, warm fuzzies are not reliable. To me, learning that fact left the whole ship rudderless.

[_I have a question]

15 middle class conservatives all sitting round thinking they are the only one to have not met Jesus face to face.

[_Themis]

I grew up believing that all apostles had experienced personal visitations from the savior. I learned somewhere along the way that's what "apostle" meant. And it was a big deal for me when I learned that wasn't the case.

I think on some level I always understood that the indoctrination I went through growing up in Mormonism wasn't grounded in anything real, like evidence. That the spiritual experiences I was having that convinced me that God was real and Mormonism was true could only take me so far. As important as they were to me personally, I couldn't be sure that they actually meant anything, or that it wasn't possible to manufacture or invoke identical experiences under a false paradigm.

That's why God, in his wisdom (I believed) always revealed himself physically to a chosen few. I didn't quite understand how it worked, but I was convinced that as long as there were some people on the planet who knew that God was real the way that we know other things, through physical, measurable evidence, then it was okay for the rest of us to rely on faith. Maybe I would never get to that point of having my calling and election made sure and seeing Jesus with my own eyes, but as long as there were people who had, and they knew that they were leading the rest of us in the right direction, then it was okay.

But there are no such people. Everyone is relying on the same warm fuzzies as me, and as good as they might feel, as right as they might feel, warm fuzzies are not reliable. To me, learning that fact left the whole ship rudderless.

Excellent points. This message is taught with the church narrative of Joseph which Joseph himself promoted. He claims many visitations of divine physical beings appearing. While we may justify why ourselves or other regular members up to even the 70 do not have these kinds of experiences, it is troubling to hear the 15 may not be having these experiences. I believe there is an expectation that if Joseph claims are true then these kinds of things shouldn't have stopped happening even if to a lesser extent. It's also a realization the spiritual experience is not very reliable or clear. I think this expectation is reasonable and logical if the church is really true.

Then one might realize they essentially stopped with Joseph's death. Joseph was the showman and BY certainly was not. Then the managers take over as a religion goes from founder to those maintaining what they started. The showman are the founders and they never make it to the top of established religions. Those are for the manager types.