You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.

[_spotlight]

Can a thing which has no purpose give purpose to something else? If there is no purpose for man can man create purpose from nothing? How does your R&D efforts make a difference? If you have no purpose how did you give purpose to your work? Or is this all part of the magic of evolution? Spontaneous purpose from the dust of the earth. If everything returns to dust did purpose really exist?

Just wondering how your fade to black world works.

In a famous 1971 paper, “The Absurd,” Thomas Nagel argues that life’s absurdity has nothing to do with its length. If a short life is absurd, he says, a longer life would be even more absurd: “Our lives are mere instants even on a geological time scale, let alone a cosmic one; we will all be dead any minute. But of course none of these evident facts can be what makes life absurd, if it is absurd. For suppose we lived forever; would not a life that is absurd if it lasts 70 years be infinitely absurd if it lasted through eternity?”

Purpose has nothing to do with the length of one's existence. Some mortal who has skillz serves more purpose than some imagined immortal without skillz if you catch my meaning.

The other mistake you make is reality does not bend to what you imagine to be purposeful or meaningful.

[_Franktalk]

So your worth is measured in some R&D? In my world view there is nothing new under the sun. We come here for the experience. The morning sun warming my face. A walk in nature where I hear the sounds of the native animals. Making friends and having relationships. These are things which I value.

How many false dichotomies can you create? Why is R&D in some sort of competition with other experiences of life? A walk in nature? I spent every free minute of my youth and young adult life backpacking in the Sierras. It was my favorite activity. I can cherish friendships as well as the next person. You don't have to abandon science and man's accomplishments and accumulation of knowledge to enjoy these other areas of life.

So you are a thing with no purpose having relationships with other creatures with no purpose. I wonder how any worth can be had by two creatures without purpose except to exist? Just where does the feeling come from "favorite activity" or "cherish friendships". Where is the evidence of this feeling. Show me how to prove that you actually had those feelings. For all I know you are just splashing empty words around. I need proof and without seen evidence I have to believe you have no feelings at all. They are just made up in your head,

[_Franktalk]

In a famous 1971 paper, “The Absurd,” Thomas Nagel argues that life’s absurdity has nothing to do with its length. If a short life is absurd, he says, a longer life would be even more absurd: “Our lives are mere instants even on a geological time scale, let alone a cosmic one; we will all be dead any minute. But of course none of these evident facts can be what makes life absurd, if it is absurd. For suppose we lived forever; would not a life that is absurd if it lasts 70 years be infinitely absurd if it lasted through eternity?”

Purpose has nothing to do with the length of one's existence. Some mortal who has skillz serves more purpose than some imagined immortal without skillz if you catch my meaning.

The other mistake you make is reality does not bend to what you imagine to be purposeful or meaningful.

Do you actually hold any personal opinion? Here you are quoting a book again. It seems you are the sum total of the books you have read. Where is the analysis of why life is absurd. Do you actually think I care what some guy wrote in 1971? But it does seem that the paper made an impact on you. So let us add this to your list of beliefs, life is absurd, life has no purpose, we cease to exist at death. Yet in this view you can have cherished relationships. And of course you see no conflict at all saying these things.

[_Franktalk]

Spotlight,

Let us hold up your beliefs to the smell test and see how they do. You believe the brain is deterministic and as such has no unseen connection to a spirit. It works purely on external stimuli and chemical/electrical reactions. In your view nothing acts outside of the brain except environmental physical factors obtained by the senses. You do not believe in a soul of man or the spirit of man. This means that the feelings you get of joy, love, hate, and the rest are actually a trick of nature. A causes B and B causes C. No room in there for feelings other than deterministic responses to stimuli. So when you tell me you have cherished friendships I have to wonder why you are letting your brain fool you into thinking there is more than a deterministic machine in your head. In your world love is fake. There was no choice going on in your mind, according to you love is just some sequence of actions in the brain that can be triggered by a set of external stimuli.

You appear to be speaking out two sides of your mouth. On one hand you tell me there is nothing unseen in the brain and the brain is purely deterministic. Then on the other hand you say you experience cherished friendships. You must realize that in your world view there are no cherished friendships. I wonder why it is that once you figured out how the brain works you continue to get fooled by it. I mean it is all fake in your world view and the view of how the brain works in your eyes. Love is fake, hate is fake, cherished friendships are fake, all fake reactions to the world. Feelings are fake, they are just a way for the brain to deal with the world. We don't love our children, we are programmed to take care of them by our evolved brain. We are a slave to Darwin's idea.

Now you could tell me that all emotions are preprogrammed responses in the brain. You could tell me we are but robots, slaves to some initial conditions in this universe. Or you can explain how it is that a deterministic brain has manifested emotions beyond the deterministic machine of the brain?

I however believe I have free will. It comes from outside of the brain. I believe I can actually make a choice outside of brain chemistry or physical stimuli. I believe love is real and outside of the physical world. I choose to believe this.

Then with an open mind I view the world around me. I try and make sense of this place. I perform mind experiments dealing with the nature of eternity. I see an expanded reality that gives purpose to life. A reality where love exist and is not purely cause and effect. I can sense with my spirit the expanded reality. I can almost touch it. I desire that the Kingdom of Heaven come to the earth now. But I see the minds of men so attached to this world they stop heaven on earth. They let earthly desires rule over them. And in their mind they do not think they have a choice. For they all believe in a deterministic world.

[_spotlight]

Frank,

All you have managed to do is describe your false dichotomy to me with which I am already familiar. In your false dichotomy to have feelings requires a supernatural explanation. This is a BS presupposition on your part but that is what creationists do, they make up BS and use it to prove something else. You simply accept the BS as self evident. It isn't. It's folk knowledge and it is incorrect.

The brain is an evolved thing. Trace it back through geologic time. What advantage does a brain offer to an organism over another without a brain? When the situation an organism is in is bad for the organism the brain creates feelings of discomfort and pain to which the organism responds. When the organism eats something good for it the brain creates feelings of comfort and satisfaction. Feelings are the most basic function of a brain. Yet you treat them as the highest evidence of the great beyond!

Likewise you assume that others without your view of the great beyond have no purpose simply because they don't have your purpose. How ignorant and arrogant can you be? There are gut flora inside of you without which your life would not be possible. From your perspective their purpose is to keep you alive. But if they could think and talk I doubt that is the way they would describe their purpose. They would not give a second thought about you unless they were capable of learning that they'd need to find a new home if you bit it. They'd likely never learn that though, being as highly evolved as they are, they'd likely choose to think for themselves. Gut flora are another evidence of evolution by the way. The further removed the other apes are from us on the evolutionary tree the greater the distinction in the composition of the gut flora, and the closer they are to us on the evolutionary tree the closer the composition of their gut flora.

Thoughts can be generated by the introduction of chemicals and also by external EM fields to the brain. So can feelings.

Brains create feelings to force the body to make choices that relieve the body from a bad situation and move it toward a better situation. You can choose to do what you want but you can't choose what you want.

The example of the ant colony which you dismissed as simple, merely demonstrates the fact that a colony of ants effectively made a choice of a new home without the need for an appeal to the supernatural.

Here is what the scientific community has arrived at after years of study:

In short there is only one sensible conclusion: Souls do not exist. This lesson from natural biology came too late for some, and the belief in special souls just for Human Beings has pervaded Human religions up to the present day.

For others, since Frank won't taint his mind with the thinking of scientists, here are two links that refute Frank's nonsensical criticisms:

http://www.humantruth.information/free_will.html

http://www.humantruth.information/souls.html

Continue to "think for yourself" Frank, but you will be limited to the experiments you can perform in a single lifetime which won't be enough to learn much of anything really. That is what makes our species so superior to others but you just toss it all under the bus. I think you enjoy being a laughingstock. You must harbor the belief that you are garnering a greater reward for doing so.

[_Maksutov]

Frank,

All you have managed to do is describe your false dichotomy to me with which I am already familiar. In your false dichotomy to have feelings requires a supernatural explanation. This is a BS presupposition on your part but that is what creationists do, they make up BS and use it to prove something else. You simply accept the BS as self evident. It isn't. It's folk knowledge and it is incorrect.

The brain is an evolved thing. Trace it back through geologic time. What advantage does a brain offer to an organism over another without a brain? When the situation an organism is in is bad for the organism the brain creates feelings of discomfort and pain to which the organism responds. When the organism eats something good for it the brain creates feelings of comfort and satisfaction. Feelings are the most basic function of a brain. Yet you treat them as the highest evidence of the great beyond!

Likewise you assume that others without your view of the great beyond have no purpose simply because they don't have your purpose. How ignorant and arrogant can you be? There are gut flora inside of you without which your life would not be possible. From your perspective their purpose is to keep you alive. But if they could think and talk I doubt that is the way they would describe their purpose. They would not give a second thought about you unless they were capable of learning that they'd need to find a new home if you bit it. They'd likely never learn that though, being as highly evolved as they are, they'd likely choose to think for themselves. Gut flora are another evidence of evolution by the way. The further removed the other apes are from us on the evolutionary tree the greater the distinction in the composition of the gut flora, and the closer they are to us on the evolutionary tree the closer the composition of their gut flora.

Thoughts can be generated by the introduction of chemicals and also by external EM fields to the brain. So can feelings.

Brains create feelings to force the body to make choices that relieve the body from a bad situation and move it toward a better situation. You can choose to do what you want but you can't choose what you want.

The example of the ant colony which you dismissed as simple, merely demonstrates the fact that a colony of ants effectively made a choice of a new home without the need for an appeal to the supernatural.

Here is what the scientific community has arrived at after years of study:

In short there is only one sensible conclusion: Souls do not exist. This lesson from natural biology came too late for some, and the belief in special souls just for Human Beings has pervaded Human religions up to the present day.

For others, since Frank won't taint his mind with the thinking of scientists, here are two links that refute Frank's nonsensical criticisms:

http://www.humantruth.information/free_will.html

http://www.humantruth.information/souls.html

Continue to "think for yourself" Frank, but you will be limited to the experiments you can perform in a single lifetime which won't be enough to learn much of anything really. That is what makes our species so superior to others but you just toss it all under the bus. I think you enjoy being a laughingstock. You must harbor the belief that you are garnering a greater reward for doing so.

Ah, Spotlight. Still trying to talk to Frank. Frank won't listen. Frank can't be corrected, Frank refuses to learn. His precious little ego is worth more than all of the evidence and human accomplishments on display every day throughout the world. And so he will go on as a petulant, ungrateful child dissing the wonders and the comforts afforded him by the adults who solve the problems that he can't even imagine.

[_huckelberry]

spotlight, from your link ,souls

"This may all highlight how consciousness is possible, but why did it arise? The psychologist Richard Gross above has already said that it is hard to tell if consciousness is merely a by-product of complexity, or if it specifically evolved. In "Kinds of Minds" by Daniel C. Dennett (1996) the author airs a respectable theory: That consciousness arose as a method for trying to manipulate other individuals' reactions to our actions, therefore 'mapping' their consciousness, therefore leaving space to analyse own reactions too. Combine with words and language and we have a modern, Human, intelligent conscious lifeform being where consciousness awareness is selected for on the basis of the benefits of increased social skills."
--------------
I thought this was a strikingly interesting summary. It fit very well with the video link you provided earlier about the intelligence of other primates. Though in the video it was more cooperation motivating than desire to manipulate. Those are of course overlapping ideas. Choice of which to emphasis might be a matter of personality.

The article went on pointing out that in terms of Christian understanding the idea of some sort of soul other than the actual working of our body is an unnecessary add on. That was all I meant in an earlier post when I mentioned disintegrating souls.

The article also made sense pointing out that the idea of a soul does nothing to clarify the idea of free will or provide for its existence. (as noticed by quite a few thinkers over the past couple of thousand years)

[_spotlight]

spotlight, from your link ,souls...
The article also made sense pointing out that the idea of a soul does nothing to clarify the idea of free will or provide for its existence. (as noticed by quite a few thinkers over the past couple of thousand years)

Frank seems oblivious to this. Somehow in his mind throwing about undefined nonsense is an explanation.

[_spotlight]

Ah, Spotlight. Still trying to talk to Frank. Frank won't listen. Frank can't be corrected, Frank refuses to learn. His precious little ego is worth more than all of the evidence and human accomplishments on display every day throughout the world. And so he will go on as a petulant, ungrateful child dissing the wonders and the comforts afforded him by the adults who solve the problems that he can't even imagine.

I enjoy these exchanges as you learn a subject best when teaching it yourself. It's also entertaining, at least more so than Alaskan Bush People but perhaps less so than Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. If nothing else it provides a nice break from whatever else I might be working on. And there is also a lot to learn from the posts of other educated people.

[_Dr. Shades]

I think you enjoy being a laughingstock.

Frank won't listen. Frank can't be corrected, Frank refuses to learn. His precious little ego is worth more than all of the evidence and human accomplishments on display every day throughout the world. And so he will go on as a petulant, ungrateful child dissing the wonders and the comforts afforded him by the adults who solve the problems that he can't even imagine.

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