My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

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_Gunnar
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Gunnar »

huckleberry wrote:Oh, and Jo1952, I wanted to mention that I do not mean you personally are a bully. I do not think that you are a hurtful person. I just think you sometimes slip into arguments that have a bullying color.

Thank you for bringing that out, huck. Like you, I agree that Jo is not personally a bully. I think she is a compassionate person who genuinely cares about others. There is much about her that is worthy of emulation. I can't imagine her intentionally harming anyone or being hateful towards anyone.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
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_huckelberry
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _huckelberry »

Jo1952, I do not find it difficult to sympathize with your desire to get away from religious belief which uses fear of God as a controlling manipulation. Chick comics or Phelps god hates fags. Those are extremes of a much more widespread thing.There are various ways of thinking about the problem. I do not wish to reject your thoughts just because they are different. Yet I am not much inclined to accept them just because they are different either.

Personally I think God loves creation and is concerned to heal the injuries and harm done by human greed,disregard for others ,lust for power and lust for violence.

Personally I do not think it makes sense to expect God to do that with a wave of a hand. We are involved and change is a cooperative affair.
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _LittleNipper »

The important reason for us that Jesus Christ came was so that we might become saved. The main reason Jesus Christ came was to bring glory to GOD. Science is a powerful tool; however, it pales in comparison to GOD's direct revelation.

Scientific conjecture/hypothesis/theory is not absolute. God's revelation/prophecy is absolute. We may not understand it or even be alive when it comes to fruition, but Christians can rest assured that what God's Word says is without fault and every prophecy in His Word will transpire.

The Theory of Evolution is not how man nor living things originated. Evolution may help in the understanding of the uniqueness of every living thing on this planet; however, man is not the end product of God's trial and error nor the result of some "natural" chance selection.

The Deluge is the obvious explanation for most fossils found today. There is no complete geological scale (as understood by evolutionists) found anywhere on the planet. If Adam was created a mature "30 year old" being, would not the earth be created with fully mature eco systems to God's glory for man's sake? And if confusion reigned as a factor of the Flood, wouldn't confusion reign in any attempt apart from a revelation from God to fathom what fossils actually represent?
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper wrote:There is no complete geological scale (as understood by evolutionists) found anywhere on the planet.


The concept quite prevalent among some Christians that the geologic column does not exist is quite wrong. Morris and Parker (1987, p. 163) write:

"Now, the geologic column is an idea, not an actual series of rock layers. Nowhere do we find the complete sequence."

They are wrong. Not only is the whole column piled up in one place where one oil well can drill through it in North Dakota, the entire geologic column is found in 25 other basins around the world, piled up in proper order. These basins are:

The Ghadames Basin in Libya
The Beni Mellal Basin in Morrocco
The Tunisian Basin in Tunisia
The Oman Interior Basin in Oman
The Western Desert Basin in Egypt
The Adana Basin in Turkey
The Iskenderun Basin in Turkey
The Moesian Platform in Bulgaria
The Carpathian Basin in Poland
The Baltic Basin in the USSR
The Yeniseiy-Khatanga Basin in the USSR
The Farah Basin in Afghanistan
The Helmand Basin in Afghanistan
The Yazd-Kerman-Tabas Basin in Iran
The Manhai-Subei Basin in China
The Jiuxi Basin China
The Tung t'in - Yuan Shui Basin China
The Tarim Basin China
The Szechwan Basin China
The Yukon-Porcupine Province Alaska
The Williston Basin in North Dakota
The Tampico Embayment Mexico
The Bogata Basin Colombia
The Bonaparte Basin, Australia
The Beaufort Sea Basin/McKenzie River Delta

(Sources:
Robertson Group, 1989;
A.F. Trendall et al , editors, Geol. Surv. West. Australia Memoir 3, 1990, pp 382, 396;
N.E. Haimla et al, The Geology of North America, Vol. L, DNAG volumes, 1990, p. 517)
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper wrote:The Deluge is the obvious explanation for most fossils found today.


Really? Then please explain the previous post I gave you on chemostratigraphy. Oh and here is another for you to explain as well.

Creationists must explain to us how sediment and rock laid down in a mere year can yield such fantastic, orderly differences in radiometric ages. This poses a fatal problem whether one believes in the accuracy of radiometric dating or not! One would think that the flood sediments (gathered from the four corners of the old antediluvian world) and their associated igneous rock (formed during the flood) would all register very little radiometric age. At the very least we would expect random fluctuations if the radiometric methods were completely in error. Why should the percentage of lead to uranium in zircon crystals (the key to ordinary uranium-lead, radiometric dating) depend on which geologic period they are found in? If most of the geologic column were created during Noah's flood, would it really matter whether a zircon crystal was found in Cambrian strata or Cretaceous strata, in Jurassic strata or Tertiary strata? Noah's flood might just as easily deposit the same crystal in one place as another.

Thus, we have a mystery. Pressure has nothing to do with it, and zircon crystals all have about the same density as their total lead content is small. Just what is it that a Cambrian stratum has which a Cretaceous stratum lacks? What does the Jurassic strata have that the Tertiary strata do not? If rock type mattered then we would expect a zircon crystal's lead content to vary dramatically within the Cambrian or Cretaceous strata according to their local rock types. No, that's not what we observe. How about neutrinos or cosmic rays? Neutrinos penetrate the earth so easily that they would affect all strata more or less equally, to the extent that they affect anything at all. Cosmic rays, on the other hand, don't penetrate that far into the earth to begin with, so we can rule them out. The depth of burial, itself, has little to do with our mystery. In some parts of the world the Cretaceous is found deeper than is the Cambrian in other parts of the world. The depth at which either is found can vary dramatically. In the Grand Canyon area the Cambrian lies beneath a huge column of strata; in California's Mojave Desert portions of the Cambrian are exposed at the surface.

For the young-earth creationist, this is an unsolvable mystery, a mystery with parallels in each of the radiometric clocks used by geologists. The potassium-argon, rubidium-strontium, samarium-neodymium, luteium-hafnium, rhenium-osmium, thorium-lead, and the two uranium-lead dating methods all point to the same amazing fact. The ratio between tiny amounts of radioactive elements and their decay products have this uncanny ability to determine which strata a rock will appear in! What is this magic ingredient that each of the geologic periods have which affects rocks and zircon crystals so? For those who believe that each of the geologic periods were laid down in days or weeks by Noah's flood, the mystery has no intelligent answer. For the rest of us, the answer is as plain as daylight. The answer to our riddle is time. The Cambrian has simply been around a lot longer than the Cretaceous, and the radioactive uranium in its zircon crystals has had more time to decay into lead. The same radioactive elements in different geologic periods will have decayed by different amounts.

ref:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-gc.html
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _jo1952 »

Jersey Girl wrote:jo1952,

Are you saying that you try to follow the teachings of Christ but that you don't consider yourself a Christian? Can you explain that for me?


Hi Jersey Girl,

Yes, I try to do what Christ taught.....to do unto others what I would want others to do to me. I also believe that He really lived; but I think His "work" was something different than what "Christians" believe about Him. I believe that the religion of Christianity was based upon the teachings of the man we know as Christ....but that it was purposely developed on the teachings of the man without regard to what He actually said about Himself. The religion built is just another religion like all the others before it....purposed to control the minds of the people. I think that His first appearance inside of mortality was completely different than His ultimate role inside of our solar system---inside of our particular on-going eternal round. His role began when He became the very first born into this solar system....and it will not "end" until everyone participating decides they are finished with this round. He was born into the second estate just like the rest of us who are participating in this eternal round---but He was the first BECAUSE of His role.

Because a Christian does not believe what I now believe about Him, I no longer call myself a Christian. The reason I believe Christians believe in a mythical Christ is due to how the religion makes claims about Him which I don't think He taught; In other words, I don't think that the religion built around Him depicts who He said He was, nor does it reflect what He said His work was during His mortality. If I were to still claim to be a Christian, then this would no longer be an accurate depiction of what I believe about Him.

I don't think there is anything wrong or right about the beliefs of Christianity vs my beliefs; they are just different. We all experience mortality very uniquely....no other person EVER experiences in the same way or feeling or reaction that another personally experiences mortality. For us to try to say that others should be experiencing the world in the same way as we do is always an effort to control another (this would obviously include what we believe).....and in this, we act as lucifer/the natural man/enemy of God who is trying to control the free will of anyone other than our self. Christians....nor any other religion....allow for us to experience our mortality without encumbering us with their rules and laws. Religion is one of the worst offenders against free will. I do believe, though, that religion serves an awesome purpose in the over-all picture. There is nothing that takes place inside of mortality which does not serve the ultimate purpose of our experiencing joy in our existence as eternal beings.
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper wrote: Science is a powerful tool; however, it pales in comparison to GOD's direct revelation.


Actually it disproves "god's direct revelation."

The short version:

The Oklo natural reactor disproves a young earth. How? To make a reactor run we need a higher concentration of U-235 compared to U-238 than we find in nature. There has to be enrichment of U-235 compared to U-238. How does that happen naturally? It doesn't. The only way to get enrichment of U-235 relative to U-238 in nature is to go back in time nearly two billion years. Why? Because the decay rates of U-238 and U-235 happen to be different. U-235 decays faster than U-238. You have to rewind the clock that much to get a ratio of U-235 to U-238 that will allow a natural reactor to run.


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The long version:

Uranium was apparently formed in supernovas about 6.6 billion years ago. While it is not common in the solar system, today its slow radioactive decay provides the main source of heat inside the Earth, causing convection and continental drift.

Like other elements, uranium occurs in several slightly differing forms known as 'isotopes'. These isotopes differ from each other in the number of uncharged particles (neutrons) in the nucleus. Natural uranium as found in the Earth's crust is a mixture largely of two isotopes: uranium-238 (U-238), accounting for 99.3% and uranium-235 (U-235) about 0.7%.

The isotope U-235 is important because under certain conditions it can readily be split, yielding a lot of energy. It is therefore said to be 'fissile' and we use the expression 'nuclear fission'.

Meanwhile U-238, like all radioactive isotopes, decays. But U-238 decays very slowly, its half-life being about the same as the age of the Earth (4500 million years). This means that it is barely radioactive, less so than many other isotopes in rocks and sand. Nevertheless it generates 0.1 watts/tonne as decay heat and this is enough to warm the Earth's core. U-235 decays faster.

The nucleus of the U-235 atom comprises 92 protons and 143 neutrons (92 + 143 = 235). When the nucleus of a U-235 atom captures a moving neutron it is relatively unstable and splits in two (fissions) and releases some energy in the form of heat, also two or three additional neutrons are thrown off. If enough of these expelled neutrons cause the nuclei of other U-235 atoms to split, releasing further neutrons, a fission 'chain reaction' can be achieved.

Fission may take place in any of the heavy nuclei after capture of a neutron. However, low-energy (slow, or thermal) neutrons are able to cause fission only in those isotopes of uranium and plutonium whose nuclei contain odd numbers of neutrons (e.g. U-233, U-235, and Pu-239). (The cross section for the capture of thermal neutrons is high.)

The fuel elements in a reactor are surrounded by a substance called a moderator to slow the speed of the emitted neutrons and thus enable the chain reaction to continue. Water, graphite and heavy water are used as moderators in different types of reactors. In a natural reactor water is the moderator.

Whereas the U-235 nucleus is 'fissile', that of U-238 is said to be 'fertile'. This means that it can capture one of the neutrons which are flying about in the core of the reactor and become (indirectly) plutonium-239, which is fissile. Pu-239 is very much like U-235, in that it fissions when hit by a neutron and this also yields a lot of energy.

Image

Because there is so much U-238 in a reactor core (most of the fuel), these reactions occur frequently, and in fact about one third of the fuel's energy yield comes from "burning" Pu-239.

Uranium may also be mined by in situ leaching (ISL), where it is dissolved from a porous underground ore body in situ and pumped to the surface.

The end product of the mining and milling stages, or of ISL, is uranium oxide concentrate (U3O8). This is the form in which uranium is sold.

Before it can be used in a reactor for electricity generation, however, it must undergo a series of processes to produce a usable fuel.

For most of the world's reactors, the next step in making the fuel is to convert the uranium oxide into a gas, uranium hexafluoride (UF6), which enables it to be enriched. Enrichment increases the proportion of the uranium-235 isotope from its natural level of 0.7% to 4 - 5%. This enables greater technical efficiency in reactor design and operation, particularly in larger reactors, and allows the use of ordinary water as a moderator.

The Oklo natural nuclear reactor formed when a uranium-rich mineral deposit became inundated with groundwater that acted as a neutron moderator, and a nuclear chain reaction took place. The heat generated from the nuclear fission caused the groundwater to boil away, which slowed or stopped the reaction. After cooling of the mineral deposit, the water returned and the reaction started again. These fission reactions were sustained for hundreds of thousands of years, until a chain reaction could no longer be supported.

How does enrichment occur naturally such that a natural reactor is possible? It doesn't. A natural reactor today is impossible due to the low level of U-235 compared to U-238. But remember that U-235 decays faster than U-238. This means that in the past the relative concentration of U-235 was greater than at present. If we go far enough back in time we arrive at a point in the past where the necessary concentration of 4-5% U-235 is achieved. How far back do we need to go to achieve this? Just under 2 billion years which coincidentally is the age determined for the Oklo natural reactor.

You might be wondering why natural nuclear reactors at Oklo developed in uranium deposits only two billion years ago, when uranium-235 had already been depleted to less than 4% of uranium. Wouldn’t fission reactors have been even more likely to develop earlier in Earth’s history, when the uranium-235 levels were even higher? Remember that a high isotopic abundance of uranium-235 is just one of four conditions required for a natural nuclear reactor to develop. Another important condition is that uranium be concentrated. It turns out, no significant concentrations of uranium developed on Earth prior to about two billion years ago. The reason for this is simple: oxygen.

In most rocks on Earth, uranium is present only in trace quantities (parts per million or parts per billion). Uranium is generally concentrated by hydrothermal circulation, which picks up uranium and concentrates it in a new hydrothermal deposit. In order for this hydrothermal circulation to concentrate uranium, that uranium must be soluble (able to be picked up in water). However, uranium solubility is a little tricky. When uranium is in its reduced form (U4+), uranium tends to form very stable compounds that are not easily brought into solution. However, when uranium is in its oxidized form (U6+), uranium easily forms soluble complexes. There was very little oxygen in Earth’s very early atmosphere. So, it would have been very difficult to concentrate a significant amount of uranium since there was no oxygen to transform uranium into its soluble forms.

However, starting around 2.4 billion years ago, there was an event called the “Great Oxidation Event” during which the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere rose significantly, from <1% to ≥15%. This significant rise in atmospheric oxygen was a result of photosynthetic cyanobacteria producing oxygen. For a while, the oxygen produced by these bacteria was taken up by minerals which became oxidized. However, when these minerals became saturated in oxygen, this oxygen began to accumulate in the atmosphere. This increase of atmospheric oxygen allowed uranium to become mobile and to be concentrated through hydrothermal circulation.

Coincidentally the Oklo natural reactor is found in the early Proterozoic portion of the geologic column. It could have falsified the concept of a geologic column if it had been found somewhere else, but it wasn't.

***************************************************************

This ties in with evolution as well!

After about a billion years photosynthesis evolved.

Photosynthesis is the process by which carbon dioxide is fixed into usable sugars by the splitting of a water molecule. The process of photosynthesis produces oxygen, which is highly dangerous for cells; it can screw up the internal redox potential, create dangerous free-radicals and precipitate ions out into soluble forms. This means that from the point of view of every other organism the newly-evolved photosynthetic blobs were floating around spewing toxic gas into the atmosphere.

The arrival of this new resource (oxygen) lead to a change in the way organisms respired as well. Up until what is sometimes called the Great Oxidation Event most respiration was anoxic, probably similar to anaerobic respiration, or fermentation, in anaerobic bacteria around today. This process, while enough to keep life going, is around sixteen times less efficient than aerobic respiration. The proto-bacteria that managed to use the oxygen would therefore have gained a major energy boost.

This energy boost allowed the oxygen-using bacteria to go forth and multiply, leaving the anoxic bacteria clinging to the few environmental niches where no oxygen could penetrate. Some of these oxygen-using bacteria were swallowed up by larger cells who then used them as specialised intracellular breathing compartments. The bacteria became mitochondria, and the cells with mitochondria grew bigger and formed more intracellular compartments. They became eukaryotic cells, the kind of cells that all multicellular animals are made from.

So even now, when you breath, it’s ancient bacteria inside your cells that process the oxygen. The only part of the human cell that does oxidative-respiration is the mitochondria. Sure, the human part of the cell can produce small amounts of energy in the cytoplasm, but then the whole process is shuttled into the mitochondria in order to get the massive oxygen energy boost.

One biochemical trick that evolved around two billion years ago to take advantage of oxygen is still being used for respiration by all multicellular life on earth.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_jo1952
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _jo1952 »

huckelberry wrote:Jersey Girl, I will try to propose a summary, jo1952 is of course invited to correct my summary. In fact the summaries purpose is to invite clarification.

Doctrines proposed.
1 we are eternally all knowing and god.
2 we come here in order to escape the boredom of eternity.
3 we need opposition in all things. (perhaps this life in relation to eternity is like slipping out the back of church camp to smoke a jay.
4 People can get glimpses of their all knowing self.


In a nut shell, yes. by the way, the opposition helps us to appreciate the perfectness we experience inside of the second estate. When all we experience there is perfect, we have nothing inside of our second estate existence to compare those experiences with. So, we enter mortality where we can experience everything opposite to the way it is (though this is not the only reason we use mortality). Mortality cannot jeopardize the second estate....it is only temporary. Nothing imperfect exists inside the second estate.

5 Jesus had more glimpses because he was chosen or is in an administrative position fore us here. He will be an administrator reestablishing order here as we all sober up.


Christ was completely connected to His advanced self. There was no veil; as such, He didn't have only glimpses....He ALWAYS knew the Real Truth of what was going on---including the uniqueness of His role. When He said He knew us before the foundation of our world, He meant it literally. Being the first, He knew every single one of us as we were born into the second estate. This eternal round has been going on for billions of years.

He won't be re-establishing order inside of mortality; there never was order here. There never was the ability to exercise complete free will here; mortality is purposed for us to be able to exercise complete free will while in an imperfect world. However, because there were a third of us who wanted to start participating before He established His government, we were allowed to enter. Since it was our free will desire to jump in ahead of time, we were allowed to do so. by the way, the government He establishes is the same one used inside of all eternal rounds. Also, as has been in all other eternal rounds, there are those who are going to want to jump in before a Christ's government is established. In accordance with free will, this is allowed. However, we DO place a time limit on how long we will participate BEFORE that government is set up. If a particular world manages to not get to the point of destroying itself, then the Christ will enter at the no-longer-than pre-established time limit. If a world manages to get the point of complete destruction BEFORE that limit, then the Christ/Administrator/Overseer will enter before it. I believe we are getting very close to the limited time, which is also why we have been allowed to make astounding leaps in technology.

6 everybody returns safely to eternity for another dose of boredom.


We are never bored...even in our first estate of existence. We never get bored BECAUSE we keep creating worlds for the purpose of experiencing newness. We create in order to keep from getting bored. In this way, we can always experience joy in our existence.

Oh, and Jo1952, I wanted to mention that I do not mean you personally are a bully. I do not think that you are a hurtful person. I just think you sometimes slip into arguments that have a bullying color.


Thank you for clearing that up, Huckleberry. I don't mean to sound that way....it's hard to read the emotion or intent of mere words.
_jo1952
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _jo1952 »

Jersey Girl wrote:Thanks huck!

When I start reading her posts I get lost in them and I'd like to try to understand what she's communicating. So, what are True Messengers? Is Jesus a True Messenger? Anyone else?


It's so hard to communicate these things in a very few words. My skills suck.

I would equate a True Messenger with the religious word "prophet"...though there is nothing religious about a True Messenger's role. In fact, they enter mortality for the purpose of giving us a different choice than believing in religion. They can't speak plainly because that would interfere with free will...including the free will to believe in religion. However, they DO use religious words and beliefs in order to convey their messages.

The purpose of a TM is to unintrusively introduce a message which counters that of religion. Whenever religion gets so powerful that our avatar has little probability of thinking without the influence of religion, we send ourselves a TM. Christ was absolutely a TM....with a completely unique role. He not only taught a recipe for peace (peace also allows for freedom of thought) which would help heal the consequences of our not doing unto others as we would have others do unto us, He also gave us clues as to our true identity. Those clues can only be seen and understood when we give up what the world has taught us (especially what the world teaches about religion).
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _jo1952 »

For the record, I believe that we are all advanced humans participating inside of mortality. I believe it is wonderful for us to be able to believe whatever we want to believe. We each experience our world in our own unique way; and why shouldn't we? We are all equal (we just don't remember this..especially, and brilliantly, because our mortal circumstances are purposely different from each other). What I am trying to point out is that there is still a consequence to our beliefs; and even then, those consequences are accomplishing exactly what our advanced self are looking for. As such, it is ALL good......even the suffering. As a compassionate being (which we ALL are), I just hate to see the suffering when I realize there is something we could do about it; but it needs to be our own free will choice. Those who are suffering don't understand what's going on here any more than the rest of us.

The purpose of a Christ is to administrate over us...making sure that we don't interfere with another's ability to exercise free will. A Christ is completely impartial and "righteous" in His role. He doesn't care who anyone is...no one will be allowed to control the free will of another. His role includes making sure that if a person's free will desire is to impede with another's, He will step in and stop it. In that, HE will interfere with someone's free will....but it will be because we have given Him that power and authority over us. He will do so righteously; we will trust Him. This is a trust we have never been able to allow anyone to have; because there have been no other who has been righteous among us.

Inasmuch as it is my desire that do we live according to His gospel of doing unto others what we would have others do unto us, the circumstances of our imperfect world cause us to not be able to live that way. The circumstance of my even giving my opinion (unless you ask for it) is an intrusion upon your free will. My advanced self may be an all intelligent and all knowing being; but my avatar is not.
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