My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

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_Quasimodo
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Quasimodo »

Franktalk wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:I doubt that your mindset will accept any evidence I offer, but here goes:

Animal emotions.

https://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/10/861.full

Self awareness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

Hair color:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070524155313.htm

Walking upright:

http://www.livescience.com/1702-walk-upright-beats-chimp.html

Lots of reading for you to do. :biggrin:


Four links and four stories. Where is the evidence? Where is the link between behavior and gene mutation? Show me the genes and the step by step path in which fitness was improved for self wareness, walking upright. blue eyes, and emotions attached to worldviews. Show me each mutation and how fitness was changed. Don't give me links to stories. I get stories from religion. Show me that science is somehow different than religion.

Show me where on human DNA is the code for being self aware, walking upright, emotions attached to worldviews. Show me something besides stories.


Not stories, Frank. Theories. The Bible has stories.

So, tell me Frank. How did we get poodles from wolves? Were they bred to be like that (a good example of evolution) or were there poodles on the ark?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_LittleNipper
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _LittleNipper »

Maksutov wrote:
Franktalk wrote:So you are telling me that you believe in science but have no proof that science is correct in their theories? Are you telling me that you accept the word of others and don't care if there is proof or not? Are you telling me that you take it on faith that the theories of science are true?

So are you telling me that science is faith based? Is science based on proof or is it based on a belief system? I assumed you thought science was evidence based. Maybe I was wrong.


I don't use the word "proof" and I don't have a "belief system". Those are paradigms from theologians. They don't fit anything but their own little theological universes.

I'm not telling you any of the things that you're asking. I don't think of those things in those terms. It's incongruous with my experience and that of the authorities that I respect.

You continue to sidestep the fact that there are large numbers of religious people who are perfectly able to function with the scientific method. They are teachers, doctors, scientists, even priests and ministers. They are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others. Just because your particular religious view precludes western science does not mean that it is anything but your own idiosyncratic example. Frankly, Frank, this looks like it's more about your pride than anything. You're too proud to learn. Pride in ignorance is not an admirable quality. I wish you would reconsider.

You may not speak about belief; however you do accept certain things based on educated assumptions while poo, pooing the considerations of others with no less authority than that of your own. That in and of itself would seem to make you prideful -- at the very least controlling.
_huckelberry
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _huckelberry »

huckelberry wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:And everyone totally realizes that Wikipedia is the end all for "fact" ---- or is it just regurgitating what is presently societies accepted rationalizations? The strata was created and looked however ancient to the unenlightened observer. Then during the Flood and soon after the strata buckled, fractured, slid, was ultimately forced upward over itself forming mountain ranges. What had been underwater ended up upon mountain peaks. At the same time this caused heat which stirred up volcanic eruptions. During all this there were meteor/asteroid strikes. RAIN from heaven and geysers (fountains of the deep) shooting upward. Whether there was once an ice canopy surrounding this planet which ultimately collapsed is anyone's guess; however, with GOD all things are possible.


Little Nipper , can't blame you for complaining about the appeal to authority there, though perhaps such appeals occasionally mean something. You use them yourself on occasion.

Reading this theory you present here I start wondering what we might see about time after all these big changes. It takes me back to those canyons in southeastern Washington state cut into 3000 feet plus of volcanic rock. If the rock was erupted during or shortly after the flood. when were the canyons formed?

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.03092,- ... 633!8i2283


https://www.google.com/maps/@46.0627549 ... 233!8i1830

The second of these images shows the side of the canyon and how each little spring rivelet forms its own deep cut in the side of the canyon. It is interesting how it appears os though the sides are soft material They are in fact composed of layer upon layer of basalt rock. When the rock is exposed, it is in lots and lots of spots, pieces slowly break away forming piles of gravel and sand, this material buids up into a layer which grows grass and other plant life covering the abrupt ledges of hard rock.


I am bumping this because it is getting buried. I will explain further. If this canyon was carved out of the basalt since Noah then it is being cut at least six inches a year. I would be able to visit places from my youth and find the canyon there 20 plus feet deeper. It is no such thing. There are the same banks same bridge, same location. I could imagine maybe six inches cut but I very much doubt it. On the hillsides I am sure that has not happened, my feet know the spots. If six inches in 45 years then the canyon is 200,000 years old. a minimal estimate by far.

Oh , here is the cutting machine involved.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.988416, ... 600!8i1071
_Gunnar
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Gunnar »

And so Franktalk continues to further underscore his willful ignorance and irrationality with almost every post he makes, while remaining totally clueless about how foolish (and/or dishonest) he makes himself look. :rolleyes: He Is surrounded by the evidence of how spectacularly successful science has been in figuring out and using the laws of nature to enhance our lives and our health and design useful technologies that perform exactly as predicted by the scientific theories and laws on which their design is based, and he stubbornly closes his eyes to all that and insists that we have no credible, supporting evidence whatsoever. Incredible!

He admits that he has no evidence for what he believes, which is commendable, I suppose, but where he goes spectacularly wrong is insisting that no one else has any evidence for what they believe either, and/or that notions proposed and accepted without any supporting evidence are just as valid and respectable (if not more so) as notions that are well supported by evidence, careful but critical observation and sound reason.

Perhaps it is just mental laziness on his part. It takes much less effort to just pull things out of your hat than go to all the tedium of gathering and rigorously evaluating all the relevant, available evidence before deciding what to believe. Besides that, rejecting the necessity and efficacy of evidence is an effective way of avoiding the discomfiture of discovering and having to admit being mistaken about one's most cherished misconceptions.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_spotlight
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

The predicted pattern of organisms at any given point in time can be described as "groups within groups", otherwise known as a nested hierarchy. The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The degree to which a given phylogeny displays a unique, well-supported, objective nested hierarchy can be rigorously quantified.

"For example, within the whole group all forms share a chambered heart; nested within those having a chambered heart is a group that additionally has a vertebral column; within the group that has both a chambered heart and vertebral column are nested those that additionally have mammary glands (i.e., you only get mammary glands if you have a chambered heart and vertebral column). The characteristics appearing at a branch point are confined to all the branches above it; they never cut across to other branches. This nested pattern is very characteristic of all life on earth."
http://www.freethoughtdebater.org/2011/ ... -evidence/

It would be very problematic if many species were found that combined characteristics of different nested groupings. Some nonvascular plants could have seeds or flowers, like vascular plants, but they do not. Gymnosperms (e.g. conifers or pines) occasionally could be found with flowers, but they never are. Non-seed plants, like ferns, could be found with woody stems; however, only some angiosperms have woody stems. Conceivably, some birds could have mammary glands or hair; some mammals could have feathers (they are an excellent means of insulation). Certain fish or amphibians could have differentiated or cusped teeth, but these are only characteristics of mammals. A mix and match of characters like this would make it extremely difficult to objectively organize species into nested hierarchies. Unlike organisms, cars do have a mix and match of characters, and this is precisely why a nested hierarchy does not flow naturally from classification of cars.

So, how well do phylogenetic trees from morphological studies match the trees made from independent molecular studies? There are over 1038 different possible ways to arrange the 30 major taxa represented in Figure 1 into a phylogenetic tree (see Table 1.3.1; Felsenstein 1982; Li 1997, p. 102). In spite of these odds, the relationships given in Figure 1, as determined from morphological characters, are completely congruent with the relationships determined independently from cytochrome c molecular studies.

Speaking quantitatively, independent morphological and molecular measurements such as these have determined the standard phylogenetic tree, as shown in Figure 1, to better than 38 decimal places. This phenomenal corroboration of universal common descent is referred to as the "twin nested hierarchy". This term is something of a misnomer, however, since there are in reality multiple nested hierarchies, independently determined from many sources of data.

Even for a phylogeny with a small number of organisms, the total number of possible trees is extremely large. For example, there are about a thousand different possible phylogenies for only six organisms; for nine organisms, there are millions of possible phylogenies; for 12 organisms, there are nearly 14 trillion different possible phylogenies (Table 1.3.1; Felsenstein 1982; Li 1997, p. 102). Thus, the probability of finding two similar trees by chance via two independent methods is extremely small.

Both Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation and Einstein's General Theory of Relativity rely upon a fundamental physical constant, G, the gravitational constant. If these theories of gravity are correct, independent methods should determine similar values for G. However, to date, very precise independent measurements of the gravitational constant G disagree by nearly 1% (Kestenbaum 1998; Quinn 2000).

However, as illustrated in Figure 1, the standard phylogenetic tree is known to 38 decimal places, which is a much greater precision than that of even the most well-determined physical constants. For comparison, the charge of the electron is known to only seven decimal places, the Planck constant is known to only eight decimal places, the mass of the neutron, proton, and electron are all known to only nine decimal places, and the universal gravitational constant has been determined to only three decimal places.

Talk Origins, 29 evidences for macro evolution

It's just a story. :lol:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Gunnar
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Gunnar »

But, if one insists on submitting one's convictions to the demands of the best available evidence and sound reason, one exposes oneself to having to face the possibility of being mistaken! Horrors! :eek:
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_spotlight
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

Gunnar wrote:But, if one insists on submitting one's convictions to the demands of the best available evidence and sound reason, one exposes oneself to having to face the possibility of being mistaken! Horrors! :eek:


The internal quest cannot be wrong! :lol:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_huckelberry
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _huckelberry »

I seem to have only created boredom for others with my enthusiasm for time and Mill Creek Canyon. Ok it is an ordinary sort of canyonand ordinary creek. Basalt is brown black and tiresome itself. But I find time interesting so will try a related but unusual illustration.

this bit of Google map should focus on the Yakima river between Ellensburg and Union Gap.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.6538818 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The green around Ellensburg is a level valley. Interstate 90 going east crosses a rise and then drops 2000 ft to the Columbia river. That would appear to be the natural path for the Yakima river to take on its path from the Cascade Mountains to the low elevation of the Colombia river. Instead the river turns south and cuts through a series of ridges which arc across the area in a north west angles. These ridges can be seen clearly in the satellite view. They are like rumples of a rug not cut by canyons. Well except for that one canyon of the Yakima which snakes through them as if they never blocked the water. How does that happen? water does not flow up hills it should flow southeast between the ridge to the Columbia river.

There is only one explanation I can see. The river was following the current path when the area was flat. The movement of the ground from the south slowly crumpled the hills upward. this upward growth was slow enough that the river eroded its path in place. Today it is in a sharp sided young canyon.

I think this is clear illustration that the buckling and uplifts in the earth surface after the huge basalt formations on top of the sedimentary rock took place slowing over extended time not in some quick burst of change.
_spotlight
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

huckelberry wrote:I seem to have only created boredom for others with my enthusiasm for time and Mill Creek Canyon. Ok it is an ordinary sort of canyonand ordinary creek. Basalt is brown black and tiresome itself. But I find time interesting so will try a related but unusual illustration.

this bit of Google map should focus on the Yakima river between Ellensburg and Union Gap.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.6538818 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The green around Ellensburg is a level valley. Interstate 90 going east crosses a rise and then drops 2000 ft to the Columbia river. That would appear to be the natural path for the Yakima river to take on its path from the Cascade Mountains to the low elevation of the Colombia river. Instead the river turns south and cuts through a series of ridges which arc across the area in a north west angles. These ridges can be seen clearly in the satellite view. They are like rumples of a rug not cut by canyons. Well except for that one canyon of the Yakima which snakes through them as if they never blocked the water. How does that happen? water does not flow up hills it should flow southeast between the ridge to the Columbia river.

There is only one explanation I can see. The river was following the current path when the area was flat. The movement of the ground from the south slowly crumpled the hills upward. this upward growth was slow enough that the river eroded its path in place. Today it is in a sharp sided young canyon.

I think this is clear illustration that the buckling and uplifts in the earth surface after the huge basalt formations on top of the sedimentary rock took place slowing over extended time not in some quick burst of change.


Not boredom huckelberry, you are being ignored because LittleNipper has no rational explanation for this problem you pose to his world view. He can't fall back onto his created with age fail safe explanation since he has to force fit a global flood in between. It just doesn't work so he is forced to ignore your post. :wink:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Gunnar
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Gunnar »

Huckleberry, I found your post about the evidence provided by Mill Creek canyon an interesting and excellent refutation of LittleNipper's nonsense. Any comments I might have made on it could not have improved on what you already said, and would only have been redundant. I agree with spotlight's assessment that LittleNipper knows he cannot refute your conclusions about it and would only make himself more of a laughingstock than he already is by attempting to do so.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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