DNA the New Fronter

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_spotlight
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _spotlight »

DrW wrote:Thank you for the time and effort you have put in to your excellent DNA-related posts on this thread. We are indeed fortunate to have domain experts on MDB who are willing to take the time to provide explanations based on evidence, as opposed to nonsense based on unfounded belief.


Maksutov wrote:I second DrW. You perform a public service, Spotlight.


Hey thanks for the props. :razz:

When it comes to fundamentalism we are not that far behind the middle East. That's a bit frightening to contemplate. We've already given our lead we once held in science to other countries. :cry:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-s ... nce-2015-5
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_DrW
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _DrW »

Deleted (due to potential for cranial catastrophe).
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _DrW »

spotlight wrote:
DrW wrote:Thank you for the time and effort you have put in to your excellent DNA-related posts on this thread. We are indeed fortunate to have domain experts on MDB who are willing to take the time to provide explanations based on evidence, as opposed to nonsense based on unfounded belief.


Maksutov wrote:I second DrW. You perform a public service, Spotlight.


Hey thanks for the props. :razz:

When it comes to fundamentalism we are not that far behind the middle East. That's a bit frightening to contemplate. We've already given our lead we once held in science to other countries. :cry:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-s ... nce-2015-5

Hey Spotlight,

As a relatively old guy with a lot of time spent working overseas (mainly with scientists and engineers), I would disagree with the statement that the US has lost its lead in science. What the US has lost (if we ever had it) is the lead in the level and quality of science and math education in our primary and secondary schools in general. (And I think that is the main point of the article you cited.)

This is a big problem, but perhaps not in the way you might think. The US can still claim a disproportionate number of the top universities on the planet, as determined by pretty much any relevant criteria you would care to name.

People from all over the world, and especially Asia, have a strong desire to gain admission to US Universities (for good reason).

The US is still the world leader in science and technology innovation. The Japanese specialize. The Chinese copy. The Germans engineer. The Indians provide technical services. The Russians can't get their anterior and posterior wired together. And so it goes. But the US still maintains the overall lead in innovation.

As I see it, the main problem with the deterioration in the quality of math and science education in US primary and secondary schools is social, and even political.

This lack of appreciation in the general population for the importance of science and math is a phenomenon with which other religious countries struggle as well. I am thinking again of Saudi Arabia, for example, where the education system turns out Islamist studies graduates in great abundance (most of whom become unemployed and are largely unemployable) and has to bring in most of its infrastructure and industry-critical scientists and engineers from other countries.

One result of this failure in primary and secondary school in this country is an increasing proportion of science idiots like Little Nipper, Franktalk, Jo 1952, Ted Cruz, and many, many others. They band together in groups, often according to religious belief, to hinder political and social progress. They are the climate change deniers, the military hawks, the common core opponents, the civil rights opponents, etc.

Their ignorance and the associated behaviors are, for any number of reasons and through a number of mechanisms, an important factor in the widening of the economic gap in the US.

The fruits of such unfounded beliefs and behaviors in this growing segment of the (less educated) population have now become manifest in the candidacies of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_spotlight
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _spotlight »

Well you are calming me down DrW. It would be nice to have a scientific literacy test for those who run for political office.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Fence Sitter
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _Fence Sitter »

spotlight wrote:Well you are calming me down DrW. It would be nice to have a scientific literacy test for those who run for political office.


I suspect that anyone able to pass that test would also be uninterested in running for office.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_spotlight
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _spotlight »

Some critiques of LittleNipper's cut and paste recommendations of books to add to your library:

Nonsense of a High Order: The Confused and Illusory World of the Atheist by Moshe Averick

http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/ ... erick.html

Signature in the Cell by Stephen C. Meyer

http://recursed.blogspot.com/2009/10/st ... heory.html
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2010/04 ... es-of.html
Now consider a very long program that has a one-letter syntax error, so that the program will not compile. Such a program does not carry out any function, so for Meyer it has no information at all! Now a single "point mutation" will magically create lots more creationist information, something Meyer says is impossible.

Poor Meyer, he is shown to be a fool in such a simple manner.

Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome by Dr. John C. Sanford

The errors in Genetic Entropy are so pervasive that it might take a whole new book to fully expose them.

https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/stan-4/

The Nature of Nature by Demski and Gordon

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/William_Dembski

The Programming of Life by Don Johnson

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2011/08/don-johnson.html
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Maksutov
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _Maksutov »

spotlight wrote:Some critiques of LittleNipper's cut and paste recommendations of books to add to your library:

Nonsense of a High Order: The Confused and Illusory World of the Atheist by Moshe Averick

http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/ ... erick.html

Signature in the Cell by Stephen C. Meyer

http://recursed.blogspot.com/2009/10/st ... heory.html
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2010/04 ... es-of.html
Now consider a very long program that has a one-letter syntax error, so that the program will not compile. Such a program does not carry out any function, so for Meyer it has no information at all! Now a single "point mutation" will magically create lots more creationist information, something Meyer says is impossible.

Poor Meyer, he is shown to be a fool in such a simple manner.

Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome by Dr. John C. Sanford

The errors in Genetic Entropy are so pervasive that it might take a whole new book to fully expose them.

https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/stan-4/

The Nature of Nature by Demski and Gordon

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/William_Dembski

The Programming of Life by Don Johnson

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2011/08/don-johnson.html


Fun coincidence? The guru founder of the cult in the Hulu series "The Path" is named Stephen Meyer. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _spotlight »

Maksutov wrote:Fun coincidence? The guru founder of the cult in the Hulu series "The Path" is named Stephen Meyer. :wink:


I'm going to have to watch that series.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _spotlight »

DrW wrote:Deleted (due to potential for cranial catastrophe).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I know huh. The rest of LittleNipper's posts are too inane for a comprehensive response. The fact that he cut and pasted them does more damage to his position than I have accomplished.

Evolutionism is merely a story. It is simply a story designed to compete with the historical record that we observe in the Bible.

Who leaked this? :lol:

Evolutionists tend to hide in the weeds of the unknown with an argument from ignorance: "If you can't prove, by empirical science, that evolution is impossible, then it happened."


Evolution is the most supported theory in all of science at the moment from evidence. Religion on the other hand is established in just this manner.

Notice how they use the weakness in their own position in an attempt to apply it (without justification) to science to try and knock it down? Too funny and too ironic.

Hey LittleNipper let's review the definition of an argument from ignorance:

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). It asserts that a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true (the vice versa spelled out).


It asserts that a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.
This is exactly the attack made upon evolution by ID proponents. Evolution is false because it has not yet been proven true.

It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false.
This is exactly the manner in which the ID crowd supports the existence of the designer!

By empirical science alone, we can only prove probabilities.

And by religion we can prove nothing at all. This is a variation of science doesn't know everything, religion doesn't know anything.

However, empirical science is not a tool that can prove anything to be true or false absolutely. For absolute proof, we have revelation.(See Basic and Concise Guide to Practical, Useful Logic and Reasoning)

Hmmm, if everybody could only agree on which revelations are valid and their proper interpretations. :lol:

God says that He created everything.

Are there any original texts? So just secondhand accounts? :lol:

He is the One Who enforces the laws of nature.

The evidence says otherwise. No hidden variables in QM includes god(s). Do you have any evidence to back this up? Didn't think so.

we know Him personally through the indwelling Presence of Jesus Christ

Is Jebus being cloned now? :confused:

PhysOrg said, "random introduction of errors into proteins, rather than traditional natural selection, may have boosted the evolution of biological complexity." How can that be?

There are no "errors" in evolution. There is no intended outcome by comparison to which that which "comes up short" is considered an "error." There are copying errors as chemicals make copies of themselves which provides for variations. But the result is not better or worse than that which was copied. It may be better fit for the environment and have a better chance of persisting as a result however.

Is there any complex system that gets better with the introduction of random errors?

Is there no way to improve a complex system? We presently have lost the ability to make our own vitamin C due to mutation. So if that mutated back to allow the bodily manufacture of vitamin C would that not be an improvement? What makes the mutation in one direction possible but the mutation in the opposite direction impossible?

Now, three people observe the same fossil in the same rock layer. One person has a worldview built on a foundation of millions of years, naturalism, big bang, evolution, materialism, and uniformitarianism and automatically sees the fossil as further evidence of all these foundational premises. Confirmation bias. This is further confirmed by colleagues with the same worldview. A second person has a worldview built on a foundation of biblical creation, about 6,000 years, a great, catastrophic, worldwide flood, and a God Who created everything and Who is currently enforcing every law of nature at every level throughout the Universe and automatically sees the fossil as further evidence of these foundational premises.


Well then feel free to take some dead animal, bury it in some muck, and apply pressure for a year and make a fossil to prove it can be done. Not going to do it? Thought not. :lol:

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit will destroy the veil.

If the mind is the veil I can agree with this. :eek:

Here is one other component of this dilemma. Supernatural revelation can come from one of three sources: Divine, demonic, or human. Because of the fall into sin that puts all human beings into bondage to Satan, human supernatural revelation actually comes from demonic forces originally, so those two could actually be one and the same. You may prefer to call them earth spirits or gods or some such, but they are demonic forces, principalities, powers--basically, they are beings created by God who have stumbled and fallen away from Him.

Is this degree of damage to one's thinking less than the damage done via drug abuse?

If we trace information back to its source, we always come to a mind, not a material process.

Except that a mind is due to a material process. :lol:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Gunnar
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Re: DNA the New Fronter

Post by _Gunnar »

DrW wrote:As I see it, the main problem with the deterioration in the quality of math and science education in US primary and secondary schools is social, and even political.

This lack of appreciation in the general population for the importance of science and math is a phenomenon with which other religious countries struggle as well. I am thinking again of Saudi Arabia, for example, where the education system turns out Islamist studies graduates in great abundance (most of whom become unemployed and are largely unemployable) and has to bring in most of its infrastructure and industry-critical scientists and engineers from other countries.

One result of this failure in primary and secondary school in this country is an increasing proportion of science idiots like Little Nipper, Franktalk, Jo 1952, Ted Cruz, and many, many others. They band together in groups, often according to religious belief, to hinder political and social progress. They are the climate change deniers, the military hawks, the common core opponents, the civil rights opponents, etc.

Their ignorance and the associated behaviors are, for any number of reasons and through a number of mechanisms, an important factor in the widening of the economic gap in the US.

The fruits of such unfounded beliefs and behaviors in this growing segment of the (less educated) population have now become manifest in the candidacies of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz.

I find this both frightening and heartbreaking. That some of the most powerful and popular political leaders in this country (including the leaders of the House Science and Technology Committee) are so abysmally ignorant of basic science and math and even seem outspokenly proud of that fact and their anti-science stance does not bode well for the future of my beloved grandchildren and the country I love. How long can the US maintain whatever lead it still retains in science and technological innovation if this disgraceful situation continues?

I am somewhat grateful to LittleNipper, though, for repeatedly, though inadvertently displaying just how ignorant and irrational his position really is. Thanks to you and spotlight and others on this forum, his clock has well and truly been cleaned numerous times.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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