My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

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_DrW
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _DrW »

LittleNipper wrote:
DrW wrote:There are any number of ways the settled science that can be used to debunk the myth of the Global Flood of Noah. In addition to Spotlight's ordered distribution of radioisotopes in geologic strata, human population genetics data also, quite convincingly, rule out the biblical global flood, as does the present biological diversity found on Earth.

The global flood is also ruled out, absolutely, by a quick calculation of what the conditions would have been like on Earth just prior to the start of the claimed 40 day precipitation event that covered the whole Earth in water.

Enough water in the atmosphere to cover the Earth to the height of, say, Mt. Ararat would have exerted a pressure at the surface of the Earth that would have made human life impossible.

For a quick estimate, simply take the depth of water that would be required to bring the water level on Earth to that of Mt. Ararat (16,800 feet).

Now consider the force that the weight that a 16,800 foot column of this water would exert at the surface of the Earth. Then add enough thermal energy to vaporize the column of water.

In order for the atmosphere to hold sufficient water to condense to liquid rain and cover the whole surface of the Earth, the temperature of the atmosphere would have been above the boiling point of water - by a lot.

Such an Earth would have looked more like Venus, where the atmospheric pressure is about 90 times greater than on Earth, and the temperature is hot enough to melt lead.

That isn't the only problem. The composition of such an atmosphere immediately prior to the rain event would have been well over 90% water vapor. Since the next most abundant gas would have been nitrogen, the concentration of oxygen in Earth's atmosphere would have not even come close to sustaining human life.

So, a quick physics calculation totally debunks the myth in three ways: atmospheric temperature, pressure and % oxygen content.

Little Nipper will no doubt find some pseudoscience reference to a computer model run by IDiots (that fails) to refute these simple (and obvious) calculations.


The surface of the earth was likely once smoother with high rolling hills rather than rugged mountain ranges. God would likely not have created a dangerous foreboding environment originally. This original creation of His design would have been ruined and changed by the Flood. There was likely water inside the earth and no deep oceans. A comet strike or two or three could have been what triggered the Flood and released any subterranean water. The weight of the water and upheavals of the earth's crust are what created the ocean depths and the high mountain ranges.

The rest is Noah in the hands of GOD. And God shut the door of the ark. Could that have been the Messiah Himself sealing the door? Might this have been the result of a shock wave shoving the door shut? All I know is that GOD tells us He shut the door to the Ark ---- He didn't reveal how. Simply read the Genesis account of the Flood. There is so much more going on here than a 40 day shower.

Could the rolling hills have been, say, 1000 feet above the level of the ocean? Because if they were, the water required to flood the Earth would still have resulted in an atmospheric pressure of more than 400 psi (as compared to the Earth's present atmospheric pressure of about 14.5 psi.) And the atmosphere would have been unbreathable.

And as for water from the fountains of the deep, the question would be where did the energy to bring the water to the surface of the Earth come from? (This mechanism would require lifting billions of tons of (nonexistent) water thousands of feet against the force of gravity.)

And where did all of that water go after the flood?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _DrW »

LittleNipper wrote:Was there really a great flood?

by Maria Trimarchi Science | Storms

There are two scientific theories in existence, one suggesting flooding around the area that is now the Black Sea and the other attributing devastating floods to a comet that struck the Earth. Let's first look at the more popular hypothesis: the flooding of the Black Sea, also known as Noah's Flood Hypothesis.

In the late 1990s, Columbia University geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman proposed that a great flood in the Middle East resulted from rising water levels at the end of the last Ice Age about 7,000 years ago. At that time, the Black Sea was a freshwater lake and the lands around it were farmlands. When the European glaciers melted, the Mediterranean Sea overflowed with a force 200 times greater than that of Niagara Falls, converting the Black Sea from fresh to saltwater and flooding the area [source: National Geographic].

National Geographic Society explorer Robert Ballard, inspired by Ryan and Pitman's hypothesis, has discovered supporting physical evidence, including an underwater river valley and ancient shoreline as well as Stone Age structures and tools beneath the Black Sea. His team has also unearthed fossils of now-extinct freshwater species dating back some 7,460 to 15,500 years.

While this theory is still being reviewed, Bruce Masse, an environmental archaeologist at Los Alamos National Laboratory, put forth his own theory about the great flood. He hypothesizes that more comets and meteors than we know have hit Earth throughout its history. He believes the seeds of great flood stories may have sprouted when a comet hit our planet about 5,000 years ago.

Masse's presumption is that a 3-mile (4.8-kilometer) wide comet crashed into the ocean off the coast of what is now Madagascar. The result? Worldwide chaos, including violent 600-foot (182.8-meter) high tsunamis and massive hurricanes spawned when superheated water vapor and aerosol particulates shot into jet streams. All of this terror was accompanied by a week of darkness caused by material expelled into the atmosphere.

Masse's theory derives from clues in cultural flood myths, including ancient petroglyphs, drawings and historical records, but it's the physical evidence he's after to make the case. Since Masse presented his idea in 2004, he's found support in the geological community.

A 600-foot high tsunami would surely leave behind a geological calling card -- and that it did. When waves are generated by such a significant impact, they create wedge-shaped configurations in the sand, known as chevrons, and when the Holocene Impact Working Group went looking for them with satellite imagery, they were able to locate such formations in Africa and Asia. Carbon dating fossils found in the chevrons will help determine if they fit within the proposed 5,000-year timeline.

While we get closer to figuring out if a great, global flood did happen, we also face future massive flooding. Catastrophic floods threaten one billion people today and this number will rise to more than two billion by 2050 [source: United Nations]. The combination of climate change, deforestation, rising sea levels and population growth threatens us with mounting risks for flooding.

So, Little Nipper, does this mean that you are forsaking your wholly untenable "Goddidit" theory of the Flood of Noah in favor of a couple of highly speculative scientific theories regarding possible local flooding events that could have possibly given rise to the myth of a global flood?

Please, say it isn't so.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Morley »

LittleNipper wrote:Was there really a great flood?

by Maria Trimarchi Science | Storms

There are two scientific theories in existence, one suggesting flooding around the area that is now the Black Sea and the other attributing devastating floods to a comet that struck the Earth. Let's first look at the more popular hypothesis: the flooding of the Black Sea, also known as Noah's Flood Hypothesis.

In the late 1990s, Columbia University geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman proposed that a great flood in the Middle East resulted from rising water levels at the end of the last Ice Age about 7,000 years ago. At that time, the Black Sea was a freshwater lake and the lands around it were farmlands. When the European glaciers melted, the Mediterranean Sea overflowed with a force 200 times greater than that of Niagara Falls, converting the Black Sea from fresh to saltwater and flooding the area [source: National Geographic].

National Geographic Society explorer Robert Ballard, inspired by Ryan and Pitman's hypothesis, has discovered supporting physical evidence, including an underwater river valley and ancient shoreline as well as Stone Age structures and tools beneath the Black Sea. His team has also unearthed fossils of now-extinct freshwater species dating back some 7,460 to 15,500 years.

While this theory is still being reviewed, Bruce Masse, an environmental archaeologist at Los Alamos National Laboratory, put forth his own theory about the great flood. He hypothesizes that more comets and meteors than we know have hit Earth throughout its history. He believes the seeds of great flood stories may have sprouted when a comet hit our planet about 5,000 years ago.

Masse's presumption is that a 3-mile (4.8-kilometer) wide comet crashed into the ocean off the coast of what is now Madagascar. The result? Worldwide chaos, including violent 600-foot (182.8-meter) high tsunamis and massive hurricanes spawned when superheated water vapor and aerosol particulates shot into jet streams. All of this terror was accompanied by a week of darkness caused by material expelled into the atmosphere.

Masse's theory derives from clues in cultural flood myths, including ancient petroglyphs, drawings and historical records, but it's the physical evidence he's after to make the case. Since Masse presented his idea in 2004, he's found support in the geological community.

A 600-foot high tsunami would surely leave behind a geological calling card -- and that it did. When waves are generated by such a significant impact, they create wedge-shaped configurations in the sand, known as chevrons, and when the Holocene Impact Working Group went looking for them with satellite imagery, they were able to locate such formations in Africa and Asia. Carbon dating fossils found in the chevrons will help determine if they fit within the proposed 5,000-year timeline.

While we get closer to figuring out if a great, global flood did happen, we also face future massive flooding. Catastrophic floods threaten one billion people today and this number will rise to more than two billion by 2050 [source: United Nations]. The combination of climate change, deforestation, rising sea levels and population growth threatens us with mounting risks for flooding.


Maria Trimarchi has a bachelor's degree in English. Whether she does or not, the scientists she references don't believe there was a global flood. They're trying to explain how local flooding could have led to the cultural ubiquity of a flood narrative.



edit:

I notice that DrW said it better than I, in the post above this.
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper wrote:No, it wouldn't because atheists and agnostics and liberal religious leaders now control the education process. They will not allow anything that may support a religious and not a secular point of view in state run institutions. And they have the full backing presently of a majority in the Supreme Court.

It's a conspiracy theory now is it? Look there is nobody to refrain you from explaining this is there? An FBI agent with a gun to your head? Is that it? Otherwise you'd answer my post?

So again, why is it that the history of civilizations exist before during and after the flood without a hiccup?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _ludwigm »

Themis wrote:
The CCC wrote:Yep. Their religion didn't get in the way of their science. :smile:
I wouldn't go that far. Certainly Christianity was a major hindrance to the sciences and still is hindering it a little today. It just wasn't able to stop it. Scientific discovery could have moved faster if not for this hindrance coming even from the scientists.

Throughout history, geocentricity has meant that only the earth really counts, on earth only mankind counts, and of men, only one’s city, tribe, family and self, counts. The average person is geocentric, anthropocentric, ethnocentric and egocentric.

If the intellectual leadership of the world agree that the universe is geocentric, then all the other centrisms follow naturally.

If the universe revolves round the earth, earth is then obviously the most important aspect of creation and the object for which the universe was made. And if that is so, it can only be for the sake of man, who is the visible ruler of earth. Mankind is king, it can do what it likes and can do no wrong.

Because pagan philosophy and Christianity were both geocentric and therefore anthropocentric, it was easier for the Roman Empire to become Christian. And as Christianity made egocentricity a central dogma, it called Aristotle Ptolemy and other Greek thinkers to its aid, to impress the intellectuals who wouldn’t be satisfied by the work of the Bible alone.

Because of egocentricity as dogma, scientific enquiry became dangerous and undesirable, and when heliocentricity was put forward by the likes of Galileo and Copernicus, it had to be quashed.

Still, old habits die hard, and man is still very egocentric - he is the measure of creation, who can do as he pleases, with no thought of consequences for the environment.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

LittleNipper,

Why is it that the fossil record (all due to a single flood) has two kinds of dragonfly fossils? The larger Meganeura that lived in an oxygen rich environment which allowed them to grow to 75cm in size and the more familiar dragonfly that lived in a normal atmosphere with less oxygen that only got to 15cm in size? How is it possible that two separate oxygen levels existed in one atmosphere allowing two different kinds/sizes of dragonflies to exist pre-flood?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Gunnar »

Franktalk wrote:
spotlight wrote:....... that these activities would constitute a waste of the precious resources of time and money.


But science does study this.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmaris/ ... 4b34885ac6

http://thefederalist.com/2014/10/22/was ... our-money/

http://www.newsweek.com/whats-true-cost ... wer-321480

Yes Spotlight we have these way more important projects.

Yes, it is true that not all government funded scientific research is equally valuable, and the first two links provide examples that may be indicative of money that could have been better spent. However, it remains true that, overall, government funded, basic science research has had enormous benefits that vastly exceed what it cost.

The third link above, however, is a blatantly dishonest and deliberately deceptive propaganda piece funded by Koch Industries for obviously self-serving reasons and is thoroughly refuted here: http://www.newsweek.com/true-benefits-wind-power-323595 in this op-ed by James D. Marston.
The True Benefits of Wind Power

By James D. Marston On 4/21/15 at 10:32 AM

Texas prides itself on being a national leader, whether it be in barbecue, football or wind energy. That’s why when someone misguidedly attacks one of our strengths—as Randy Simmons did in an opinion article republished by Newsweek last week—as a Texan, I can’t remain silent.

Simmons’ op-ed on the “true cost of wind power” is the same tired slant we have heard from fossil fuel interests time and time again, which should come as no surprise when you learn who’s really behind the piece. Simmons lists his title as professor of political economy at Utah State University, but he doesn't mention he is the Charles G. Koch professor of political economy. He's also a senior fellow at the Koch- and ExxonMobil-funded Property and Environment Research Center. In other words, he works for oil companies.

So let’s expose this op-ed for what it really is: a fraudulent attempt to discredit clean, affordable wind energy and protect polluting coal plants.


Study after study has shown that subsidies for conventional energy sources, such as coal and oil, historically have been much larger than those for renewables, but Simmons ignores this information. The Nuclear Energy Institute’s own tally indicates all renewable resources made up less than 10 percent of federal energy incentives between 1950 and 2010. Unsurprisingly, fossil resources received the bulk, at more than 70 percent. In Texas, state support for all renewables (including solar and wind) is less than $40 million a year, but the state tax breaks for natural gas production alone topped $1 billion.

Adding to his list of errors, Simmons also gets grid integration costs wrong. In fact, the cost of integrating large, conventional power plants onto the power system in Texas is more than 17 times larger than the cost of reliably integrating wind energy. When large fossil and nuclear plants fail, they do so instantaneously and without warning—and the impacts can be catastrophic. Changes in wind output, on the other hand, are gradual and predictable, meaning they can be accommodated by using low-cost, non-spin reserves, which cost about one-third as much as the expensive fast-acting reserves used during conventional power plant failures.

Moreover, last month, independent DBL Investors found states with the greatest use of renewable energy experience lower electricity prices, and states with pro-renewable policies have seen lower electricity price increases than those without. So when Simmons asserts renewable energy leads to higher electricity prices—well, he’s wrong on that count, too.

There are logical gaps in Simmons’ argument. In one breath, wind prices are too high. In the next, Simmons implies wind energy is reducing electricity prices so much that other energy sources cannot compete. This claim that wind energy is having an undue impact on other energy sources has been thoroughly debunked by a number of experts, including former Federal Energy Regulatory Commissioner John Norris. Plus, if Simmons actually supports free markets, shouldn’t a little competition be welcomed?

Then Simmons says wind specifically requires backup generation when the reality is all power plants are backed up by other plants. "Because a coal-fired or natural gas power plant must be kept online in case there’s no wind, two plants are running to do the job of one," he wrote.

Coal is rarely if ever used to back up wind. Actually, if there is an increase in reserve need as a result of less available wind, it is often met by demand response (a people-powered solution that pays electricity customers to conserve energy when the grid is stressed) or natural gas power plants that are not online but can start up quickly in the rare event they are needed. Regardless, two plants cannot be “doing the job of one,” as the electrons from any power plant would have to go somewhere.

Furthermore, transmission upgrades that help integrate wind have a number of other benefits, so they end up more than paying for themselves. In addition to saving consumers money, these upgrades improve electric reliability, make electricity markets more competitive, and protect people against fuel price fluctuations. Simmons misleadingly wants to paint these upgrades as a cost solely attributed to and beneficial for wind. (Even if that were the case, DOE calculates it would only be a cost of $3.2/MWh, which is not meaningfully higher than the transmission cost for other energy sources.)

When you truly take into account all factors, wind energy’s benefits become clear. Wind is good for:

Your pocketbook: Large wind farms got much cheaper between 2010 and 2014, and greater use of renewable energy leads to lower electricity prices. Moreover, the cost of wind energy technology will inherently go down. This is basic economics. Bernstein Research explains it nicely:


Renewable energy is a technology. In the technology sector, costs always go down. Fossil fuels are extracted. In extractive industries, costs (almost) always go up. Renewable and fossil fuel cost per unit of energy are now roughly comparable in many places…but heading in opposite directions. New, superior technologies don't split markets with old, inferior technologies.

The environment: Operational wind energy projects and those under construction will avoid 115 million tons of carbon dioxide emissions annually. This is especially important to keep in mind as we await the final rules of Environmental Protection Agency’s Clean Power Plan, which will place limits on carbon emissions from power plants in the U.S. for the first time ever and help us reduce the threat of climate catastrophe.

Public health: Reductions in emissions that come from using wind rather than dirty fossil fuels also mean a reduction in air pollution. As the Union of Concerned Scientists puts it:


Generating electricity from renewable energy rather than fossil fuels offers significant public health benefits. The air and water pollution emitted by coal plants is linked to breathing problems, neurological damage, heart attacks, and cancer. Replacing fossil fuels with renewable energy has been found to reduce premature mortality and lost workdays, and it reduces overall healthcare costs.

Unfortunately, most health costs associated with more traditional electricity generation like coal are hidden, making them seem cheaper than they really are.


The economy: According to the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA), total wind industry jobs were way up in 2014, reaching 73,000 (17,000 of which were in Texas). Moreover, AWEA found the industry created $12 billion in private investment in 2014, which brings the total to more than $100 billion since 2008. Plus, healthier populations—as pointed out above—relieve strain on our economy by reducing health costs and lost productivity.

The drought: In Texas and most of the country, it has essentially stopped raining. Because wind energy uses virtually zero water to produce electricity, it was able to avoid the consumption of over 68 billion gallons of water in the U.S. in 2014. In an increasingly water-stressed country, wind energy is one of the lowest cost options to mitigate drought.

The clean energy future is now. We can’t let fossil fuel front men, posing as academics confuse us about the benefits of our transition to a low-carbon economy. The writing’s in the wind.

Jim Marston is the founding director of the Texas office of Environmental Defense Fund.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

Gunnar,
Franktalk does not care about renewable energy. He wants us to move back into the caves.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Gunnar »

I doubt that he even wants that necessarily. He just resents that reality so often conflicts with what he would rather believe.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_DrW
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _DrW »

Gunnar wrote: He just resents that reality so often conflicts with what he would rather believe.

Great observation.

I shudder to imagine what shape we would all be in if more folks like LN were let loose to run the country. The anti-reality minority religious right wing in the minority (26%) Republican party has done quite enough damage already.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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