Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

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_mentalgymnast
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »



Thanks for this link. I'm going to go back and look at that debate/interchange again. When I kept up with it as it was going on in real time there was something that didn't settle just right with me in regards to what I was reading from Jenkins, but to be honest I can't remember WHAT it was in any detail. My interest has been peaked to read it again. I'll try to read it with fresh eyes.

Regards,
MG
_Chap
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _Chap »

Jenkins' final blog post is delicious:


Bill Hamblin: End of Debate?
August 1, 2015 by Philip Jenkins 5 Comments

Bill Hamblin is presently not saying much in our continuing debate.

Frankly, I am pretty much done with the whole thing, and plan to end my contributions to the exchanges, unless he specifically makes any statements demanding a direct response. For me, the whole Book of Mormon thing is about historical methodology, rather than that Book itself, and I’ve made all the points I wanted to. Anything I said from now on about the Book of Mormon would be repeating myself, so why do it? Anyone who’s interested can check out the online record. Much like when we started, he has his views and I have mine.

Where we go next is very much his call.

It’s been instructive for me in lots of ways, in helping me define questions of my own methodology. So just what is the difference between evidence and proof? I know the answer well enough, but it’s interesting framing it. And just what is empirical scholarship? I have learned quite a bit about Meso-American history in the process, not to mention Mormonism.

We have both said some quite harsh-sounding things, but always aimed at each other’s ideas, rather than personalities. His words about me, for instance: “It is hard to imagine a more toxic combination of utter ignorance, arrogance and contempt in scholarship.” Ouch! And I have responded in kind. But it’s good having people who are both experienced academics free to discuss ideas in a robust and adult way. Professional speaks to professional, and we learn in forthright debate. Non-academics tend not to understand those exchanges, seeing them as way more personal or even malicious than they are. Hamblin has his sense of humor in debate, I have mine.

In one way, Hamblin is much smarter than me. No, really. He has a capacity that I don’t to set aside blogs and the Internet a while in order to focus on other things in the real world. Enviable, and I should learn from him. He’s still wrong on other stuff, though.

One thing that did bother me was when one commentator suggested that I and other Ancient Book of Mormon critics were trying to make Hamblin look like “some clumsy idiot,” an unscholarly crank. That’s ironic given the number of times I have repeated just what a good, professional, scholar the guy is, in his main field of ancient Middle East history. To take one example, the Jerusalem book he co-wrote is really valuable, and I’m using it a lot. Clumsy idiot? Crank? Never my words, nor my meaning.

Oh, and the other thing: never once was I criticizing Mormons, rather than “Ancient Book of Mormon Studies” folks. Big difference!

I am hoping to become extremely wealthy as a result of these exchanges. I assume the LDS Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah, will want to use all my materials in their future classes in apologetics. I will only request a small royalty, but the volume of traffic will be significant. Maybe they should have me come and lecture?

Lord, but I love walking Rock Canyon.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

canpakes wrote:
...the Book of Mormon has not received, but deserves, treatment as a literary document on its own terms and that in order to do so the questions of historicity need to be bracketed.


As you know, this seems to be the new wave/path that many of the younger set of Mormon historians are riding/traveling. I think there is a danger in compartmentalizing like this in that by avoiding context and only looking at bits and pieces of a puzzle in isolation and staying within that sphere of inquiry to the exclusion of the other pieces and how they may or may not fit. There is a larger picture being missed and not being assembled/viewed correctly with 20/20 vision. Better to use both eyes and having to read all the letters on the chart rather than using one eye and pick and choosing which letters are being read. :smile:

Regards,
MG
Last edited by Guest on Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Chap wrote:Jenkins: Lord, but I love walking Rock Canyon.


I can wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment from Jenkins. My brother and I hiked up to the Y on Y Mountain this morning. Right next to Rock Canyon. Beautiful hike.

Regards,
MG
_Lemmie
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _Lemmie »

mentalgymnast, rewriting again, wrote:When I kept up with it as it was going on in real time there was something that didn't settle just right with me in regards to what I was reading from Jenkins, but to be honest I can't remember WHAT it was in any detail.

Third version.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

canpakes wrote:
Within that exchange (Hamblin and Jenkins) can you let me know which parts were biased and/or prejudiced, and how this affected the outcome or conclusions?


I'm going to go back and read it again. by the way, does anyone know if Jenkins' considers himself to be a practicing Christian?

He obviously believes Jesus Christ existed. Does he view him as Savior/God?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousben ... cal-jesus/

Whether he does or doesn't would possibly inform any biases/prejudices he may have or not have as he goes about his scholarly ways?

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
mentalgymnast, rewriting again, wrote:When I kept up with it as it was going on in real time there was something that didn't settle just right with me in regards to what I was reading from Jenkins, but to be honest I can't remember WHAT it was in any detail.

Third version.


Hi Lemmie, sorry I'm not responding much...well, I guess this counts...you your posts. I'm not seeing anything of value to converse with you about. But I do read your posts. I didn't want you to think I was just ignoring you. :smile:

Regards,
MG
_Goya
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _Goya »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Goya wrote:
What you’re saying is that there are a whole bunch of religions. Some of them have a lot more written about them than Mormonism—and some of them have less written about them than Mormonism...MG: ummm, no, that's not what I've been saying. Your point is that it’s amazing that Mormonism has more written about it than those religions that have less written about them.


Not exactly. The Book of Mormon and other scripture/sacred text is what I've been talking about. The scriptural foundation/artifact/keystone of the church. I think I've made my point fairly clear during this thread.

Regards,
MG


Thanks, MG. I'll fix this.

You're comparing keystone religious texts and saying some have a lot more written about them than The Book of Mormon. Some have less written about them than The Book of Mormon. You think it's amazing that The Book of Mormon has more written about it than the texts of religions that have less written about them. Is it right now?

It's maybe not so obvious to some of us what your larger point about this is.
_Goya
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _Goya »

Once again, have you considered a comparison with Bahá'í?
_Goya
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Re: Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

Post by _Goya »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Themis wrote:There is s*** loads of apologia being written for many different sacred texts.


I have purposefully left the Bible and the Koran and other eastern texts out of this discussion knowing that this is the case.
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