Science is a tool that can be abused!

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_Chap
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Chap »

Franktalk wrote:
Chap wrote:Nope. Socrates didn't write anything. His disciple Plato wrote a number of dialogues which purport to record Socrates' debates (often very lively) with a number of people, some of whom disagreed with him strongly.


His student took notes and wrote it for him. In much the same way Matthew wrote down the words of Christ. So are you saying that the book The Republic did not come from Socrates? Or are you just being "Chap" for the sake of being "Chap"? Since most books come from the printer and not the author are you saying that the ideas should not be assigned to the author? It is apparent to me that your silly comment lacks any deep thought and appears to be sand box level at best.


Look, people who have actually studied the topic know it is a good deal more complicated than that. There are at least three different 'Socrates', the one portrayed by the playwright Aristophanes, the one portrayed by Xenophon, and finally the one that Plato constructs. The dialogues written by Plato are certainly not the result of a simple process of transcription. Here to help you is something from the Oxford Classical Dictionary on the topic:

Socrates' execution prompted Plato and Xenophon to create portraits intended to refute the formal charge under which he was tried and to counter his popular image, which may have been inspired by Aristophanes' Clouds. Aristophanes had depicted Socrates engaged in natural philosophy and willing to teach his students how ‘to make the weaker argument stronger’—a commonplace charge against the sophists. Both Plato and Xenophon were intent on distinguishing Socrates as radically as possible from other members of the sophistic movement, with whom he may actually have had some affinities. But their strategies differ. In both authors, Socrates devotes himself, like the sophists, to dialectical argument and the drawing of distinctions. In both, he refuses, unlike the sophists, to receive payment. In Xenophon, however, he uses argument to support, in contrast to the sophists, a traditional and conventional understanding of the virtues. In Plato, on the other hand, it is a serious question whether he holds any views of his own, and his main difference from the sophists is that, unlike them, he never presents himself as a teacher of any subject.

Plato's and Xenophon's portraits, inconsistent as they are with Aristophanes', are also inconsistent with each other. This is the root of ‘the Socratic problem’, the question whether we can ever capture the personality and philosophy of the historical Socrates or whether we must limit ourselves to the interpretation of one or another of his literary representations. For various reasons, in the mid-19th cent. Plato replaced Xenophon as the most reliable witness for the historical Socrates, even though it is accepted that our knowledge of the latter can be at best a matter of speculation.


Oh, and I don't think anybody thinks that the views in Republic are Socrates' rather than Plato's.

Which of the 'Socratic' dialogues have you actually read, by the way?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_DrW
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _DrW »

Franktalk wrote:His student took notes and wrote it for him. In much the same way Matthew wrote down the words of Christ. So are you saying that the book The Republic did not come from Socrates?

Franktalk,

Taken in context here, you seem to be saying that the Gospel according to Mathew resulted from Mathew writing down the words of Christ.

In fact, the Gospel according to Mathew was written well after the traditional death of Christ (between about 80 and 90 CE) by an unknown and well educated Jewish male. It was based primarily on the Gospel of Mark, itself written by an unknown author, as well as on the "Q source" compilation of oral traditions of the early church.

The facts of the matter (as opposed to your imagination) pretty much destroy any shred of credibility that you might have had with regard to your argument against Chap's position.

Talk about sandbox level understanding.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Franktalk
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Franktalk »

DrW wrote:Franktalk,

Taken in context here, you seem to be saying that the Gospel according to Mathew resulted from Mathew writing down the words of Christ.

In fact, the Gospel according to Mathew was written well after the traditional death of Christ (between about 80 and 90 CE) by an unknown and well educated Jewish male. It was based primarily on the Gospel of Mark, itself written by an unknown author, as well as on the "Q source" compilation of oral traditions of the early church.

The facts of the matter (as opposed to your imagination) pretty much destroy any shred of credibility that you might have had with regard to your argument against Chap's position.


I will not disagree, but I will add that the Jesus story was a spoken story for some time before being written down. I am very aware of it and chose not to drift off on a tangent. I think if you knew the real history of what happened it would change your mindset. But that is a guess on my part. Thanks for posting the best guess scholars have today. The best way to know what happened would be to obtain a first hand account. This can happen and will happen one day. Let us just say that many of us have been here many times. If someone had their veil removed then we could obtain a first hand account. I do not have my veil removed. But to the extent I can I communicate with my greater self about truth I have been led to some truths.

Now since my comments have not been peer reviewed and published please ignore them. Feel free to embrace any source you wish.

Let me ask you a question. If someone had access to advanced medical knowledge way above what man knows today could a body not age? Given that as possible could we have someone on the earth who walked with Christ many years ago?

Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

John is still with us. And please don't drag up some old papers telling a different story. I have read them. John walks the earth. I have never met him or communicated to him in anyway that I know of. But I know he is alive.
_Franktalk
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Franktalk »

Chap wrote:Oh, and I don't think anybody thinks that the views in Republic are Socrates' rather than Plato's.

Which of the 'Socratic' dialogues have you actually read, by the way?


I read a couple in high school. It is a shame that the ideas of Socrates were not left alone. Had they not been changed they would still apply today. Socrates spoke eternal truth. And just like many others his message was rejected. There is way more going on than your history books let on.
_Chap
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Chap »

Franktalk wrote:
Chap wrote:Oh, and I don't think anybody thinks that the views in Republic are Socrates' rather than Plato's.

Which of the 'Socratic' dialogues have you actually read, by the way?


I read a couple in high school. It is a shame that the ideas of Socrates were not left alone. Had they not been changed they would still apply today. Socrates spoke eternal truth. And just like many others his message was rejected. There is way more going on than your history books let on.


Since, as I have carefully explained to you, we have three different accounts of Socrates' teaching, it is not clear to me how you can be sure that one of those three versions contains 'eternal truth', and if so which version contains it. Can you explain?

Also, kindly indicate to me how you know what was 'going on' independently of the ancient sources of historical evidence in the writings of Plato, Xenophon and Aristophanes. Did Socrates visit you in a dream, or what?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_SteelHead
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _SteelHead »

Welcome to cloud cuckoo land.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-LzY5SUsKw

And absolutely no consistency. Any idea is a good idea....
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 19, 2016 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Chap
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Chap »

SteelHead wrote:Welcome to cloud cuckoo land.


Ha! I see you too are a pal of Aristophanes!

Try this - in ancient Greek with subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BMVvIzvEc4

The traditional 'stronger' argument (from when the young respected their elders and the gods were honored) speak at 4:00, after the chorus invites them to make their case. The opposition (more or less representing Aristophanes view of Socrates) speaks after 7:00.

[Edited to add: the 'stronger argument' side look and sound a bit LDS to me, allowing for certain cultural differences ...]

Caution: phalloi are donned during this performance.

Not sure whether Franktalk will recognise his Socrates in any of this ... still, it's one way that some ancient Athenians thought of him, even though others thought differently.

Franktalk: This is not a 'history book'. This is a comedy written and staged during Socrates lifetime. We still have the text today. It's a bit like the 'Book of Mormon' musical in a way - which tells you quite a lot about Mormons, does it not, despite the jokes.
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 19, 2016 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_The CCC
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _The CCC »

SteelHead wrote:
The CCC wrote:Some one had to be the first of what God calls his children. What man calls man is a different subject.


Now show evidence for god and you will have something. Your evidence and $2.00 will buy you an item from the value menu at McDonald's.


What evidence would you accept?
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Franktank wrote:Let me ask you a question. If someone had access to advanced medical knowledge way above what man knows today could a body not age? Given that as possible could we have someone on the earth who walked with Christ many years ago?

If mankind has worshipped various gods over the centuries all of which were fabricated is it possible that Jesus as god was a fabrication? If you don't find my line of reasoning compelling why on earth would someone find your line of reasoning compelling?


But to the extent I can I communicate with my greater self about truth I have been led to some truths.

Can we have a discussion with your greater self rather than you please?
Image
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_SteelHead
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _SteelHead »

Parsimonious and razors be damned, I'll go for the more contrived and universally failed (thousands of abandoned gods) answer, because in cloud cuckoo land, all ideas are equally goood.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
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