Science is a tool that can be abused!

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_Maksutov
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Maksutov »

The CCC wrote:
As I demonstrated the LDS are open to changes in religion. We have a long history of accepting science.


I don't think so, CCC. Talmage, Widtsoe, Roberts are long past.

My former TBM BIL could not get past the idea that there was no death before Adam. As late as 1997 he believed, and taught his large family, that the Grand Canyon was carved out in a day and that fossils are remnants preserved from earlier worlds that the Earth was "organized" from. Whenever he would discuss this subject he would lapse into a hushed "priesthood voice" and say that he had other evidences that were "too sacred to talk about". Franktalk, is that you? :lol:

We also have the example of one of the popular writers on Meridian Magazine, and Maxwell Institute author, Warren Aston, is not only the major advocate of the Nahom inscriptions, but is a true believer in UFO contacts, government conspiracies, underground bases, dozens of alien species on Earth, abductions, ET/Human hybrids, the whole X Files pseudoscience trip. He provides us with the first Mormon contactee, a Montana kid named Udo Wartena who said he had contact clear back in 1940. Interestingly enough, Udo didn't record anything about it until 1981, when he wrote to Senator John Glenn about it. Kind of like a "first vision", no? Then there are those famous Mormon "scientists" like John Pratt (Uranus Testifies of Christ), John Heinerman (Space People), Lynn Hilton (Kolob Theorem) with their fantasy astronomy. There are the "free energy" Mormon pseudophysicists that Sterling Allan hangs around with. There is more than a little pseudoscience in the "nutritional supplement" industry that so many Utah MLMs are built upon. There was pseudoscience behind the activities of Mormon antigay activists like Richard Wilkins and Lynn Wardle. It should be obvious that we also have the pseudohistorians of the Mopologetics industry with their parallel methods and body of "knowledge", not to mention the conspiracy theories of Cleon Skousen and even our recent Cliven Bundy and "Captain Moroni".

I could go on, but Mormons as scientific? Evidence is sorely lacking for your proposal. From where I stand, Mormons have swallowed more pseudoscience than even the fundamentalist Christians. I know that there are many thoughtful and scientifically literate Mormons but unfortunately they are nearly mute and have little influence. We are still hearing GC talks trashing evolution in the 21st century. Sorry, but it appears that Mormon insecurity and cognitive dissonance will not allow many of them to accept the authority of science because it might mean releasing their grip on the imagined iron rod of the supernatural. :wink:

Mormon culture is structured, rigorous, methodical, technically competent, often energetic. All of these were important attributes for the survival of a theocratic colony and were most of what you needed in the 19th century American frontier, but much of Mormon ideology is now anachronistic. We'll see how the saints handle this problem. They will need to, because the current leadership is too inert and invested in the status quo to be very responsive.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

The CCC wrote: We have a long history of accepting science.

Well let's take a peak at the current situation with regards to accepting science.

Hmmm, big fail here:
https://www.LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=flood+of+noah

Another very big fail here:
https://www.LDS.org/search?lang=eng&que ... am+and+eve

No big change here:
https://www.LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=evolution
Few of the returned articles are even about biological evolution. Oh but here's one that is:
https://speeches.BYU.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... -heresies/
I'll count that as another fail.

Big Bang theory pulled up two references only, from one:
Now that I’m back from the space academy, I reflect on my time spent there and the friendships I developed. The most important things I learned at the space academy were not about science and space. I learned that missionary experiences are everywhere.

The other had the word big and the word bang but not in the proper sequence.
Fail.

geology paleontology pulled up just two articles, from one we read:

BYU’s Monte L. Bean Life Science Museum

The recently renovated Monte L. Bean Life Science Museum is home to thousands of preserved animals, birds, and insects—enough to fascinate youngsters and adults alike.

A highlight is the permanent exhibition displaying the wildlife carvings and paintings of President Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Fail

Biology didn't pull up any references at all.

You really are deluding yourself in thinking that the church accepts science.


Do yourself a favor and mention geology or biological evolution in priesthood or Sunday school and report back ok?
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 26, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

The CCC wrote:There was evidence for Lysenkoism, a solid state universe, even a geocentric one.

We have at some point in time say two possible models that fit current data. That means that there is data and that data supports both of these models. It does not mean that either of these models is the supported scientific model. When we collect enough further data to falsify one of the models then we are at the point of having a scientific model that explains the data, not before.

The LHC was built to collect data hopefully in part to answer whether or not Supersymmetry is a viable model. Before that data is collected you cannot say that Supersymmetry is a scientific model accepted by science. And obviously the data that exists beforehand supports Supersymmetry otherwise that model would not be on the table in the first place would it?

And unlike in science where we build upon the past discoveries your religion is "revealing" new doctrines that otherthrow previous doctrines rather than build on top of them by adding to them.

You are using a rhetorical trick/spin to attack the validity of science so that you can make it appear that religion is not so bad after all. Doesn't your behavior in this manner embarrass you at all?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_The CCC
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _The CCC »

As we collect more data, assumed science can and does change. That is fundamentally no different than the LDS concept of gaining data from whatever source it comes. "We are willing to receive all truth from whatever source it may come; for truth will stand, truth will endure." -Joseph F. Smith
_SteelHead
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _SteelHead »

Truth will endure. Unfortunately the Book of Mormon as a historical work, will not.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Maksutov
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Maksutov »

The CCC wrote:As we collect more data, assumed science can and does change. That is fundamentally no different than the LDS concept of gaining data from whatever source it comes. "We are willing to receive all truth from whatever source it may come; for truth will stand, truth will endure." -Joseph F. Smith


Except that the LDS don't do that. You can be ex'd for discussing what you know.

Is it some sort of compulsion of yours to try to force everything in the universe into LDS terms? Because it oversimplifies, distorts and dismisses too much in the process. On top of that, there is little consensus among the LDS themselves about what they believe. It seems to be a matter of expedience. When you have a lying, fraud-generating prophet, those who follow him are not exactly seeking "truth" but something else.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

The CCC wrote:As we collect more data, assumed science can and does change.

Can you provide a specific example of what you are referring to here. I guess I am in the habit of thinking of the hard sciences as science and the soft sciences as something less than real science. The term "assumed science" is a self contradiction in my mind.

That is fundamentally no different than the LDS concept of gaining data from whatever source it comes. "We are willing to receive all truth from whatever source it may come; for truth will stand, truth will endure." -Joseph F. Smith

Then why hasn't the church embraced the fact that there was not a global flood of Noah?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

This is it in a nutshell.

The LDS or Mormon religion is a silly literalist religion. It accepts a literal Adam and Eve speaking a pure Adamic language that is a lot like English for crying out loud. Son Ahman? Give me a break.

Those who would try to make Adam and Eve figurative within this religion have the following problem. Joseph and Oliver got the priesthood keys from Peter James and John. The keys were passed down from dispensation to dispensation all the way back to, you guessed it, Adam. Elijah was taken up into heaven without tasting death etc because this passing of the keys had to be done with a physical body etc. The saints must gather at Adam Ondi Ahman prior to the return of Christ in his glory, etc.

There is no way you can get away from literalism in Mormonism. If the keys aren't really real, what are you doing sealing yourselves within the temple?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Maksutov
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Maksutov »

spotlight wrote:This is it in a nutshell.

The LDS or Mormon religion is a silly literalist religion. It accepts a literal Adam and Eve speaking a pure Adamic language that is a lot like English for crying out loud. Son Ahman? Give me a break.

Those who would try to make Adam and Eve figurative within this religion have the following problem. Joseph and Oliver got the priesthood keys from Peter James and John. The keys were passed down from dispensation to dispensation all the way back to, you guessed it, Adam. Elijah was taken up into heaven without tasting death etc because this passing of the keys had to be done with a physical body etc. The saints must gather at Adam Ondi Ahman prior to the return of Christ in his glory, etc.

There is no way you can get away from literalism in Mormonism. If the keys aren't really real, what are you doing sealing yourselves within the temple?


This is why Utah Mormonism is Christian Fundamentalism Plus. It takes the most problematic parts of Christianity and adds to/expands upon them. The leaders think that they can slap a technological/corporate shell on a mid 19th century confabulation and all will be well. Nope.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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