Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

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_Blixa
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Blixa »

Kishkumen wrote:I'll be more than happy with the Tarot! (But will always dream of the theology.)


It's a back burner project I've been squirreling away bits for, for years now. There's much more a chance I will become a hedge witch than a Episcopal priest (though I once thought there was a glimmer of a calling in that direction). This is my starting point, thence back to ley lines and the alchemical landscape.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Johannes
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Johannes »

Blixa wrote:There's much more a chance I will become a hedge witch than a Episcopal priest (though I once thought there was a glimmer of a calling in that direction).


Now that is a fate I wouldn't wish on anyone :wink:
_Johannes
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Johannes »

Thanks for that link on John Dee, Blixa. He and Kelley are men who I've never really got around to studying.

I couldn't help thinking that this part was oddly Smithian:

Dee’s beliefs gained currency among notables including Sir Walter Raleigh and the poet Philip Sidney. Yet the Dee-Kelley enterprise ended badly, with professional failures and a surprisingly salacious personal dispute—Kelley claimed that the angels required the two men to keep everything “in common,” including Dee’s much younger wife, Jane, who was nonplussed by the idea.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Blixa wrote:It's a back burner project I've been squirreling away bits for, for years now. There's much more a chance I will become a hedge witch than a Episcopal priest (though I once thought there was a glimmer of a calling in that direction). This is my starting point, thence back to ley lines and the alchemical landscape.


JD is an excellent and fitting place to start. I dream of holding that Tarot deck.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Blixa
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Blixa »

Johannes wrote:Thanks for that link on John Dee, Blixa. He and Kelley are men who I've never really got around to studying.

I couldn't help thinking that this part was oddly Smithian:

Dee’s beliefs gained currency among notables including Sir Walter Raleigh and the poet Philip Sidney. Yet the Dee-Kelley enterprise ended badly, with professional failures and a surprisingly salacious personal dispute—Kelley claimed that the angels required the two men to keep everything “in common,” including Dee’s much younger wife, Jane, who was nonplussed by the idea.


Oh yes. And the recovered language and scrying, too. Perhaps Dee and Kelley were on that Book of Mormon translation committee....
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Chap
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Chap »

This has been, as it should be, a very high-toned conversation, with all kinds of interesting information coming out along the way.

But back to the OP for a moment, perhaps.

From much of what has been said on this thread, I carry away the impression that several posters with an academic background want, in effect, to draw a distinction between two possible criticisms of Nibley:

1. He deliberately, consciously, and with the intention of deceiving, misused his sources so as to make them say things contrary to the evident intention of their ancient or medieval authors, by insertion, omission or partial quotation, in such a way as to favor his particular view of the past seen through a Mormon lens. In other words, he lied.

2. He was so immersed in his own idiosyncratically Mormon view of the world that somehow everything that went from the pages he read into his brain and out again through his typewriter became somehow 'Nibleyized', almost (note the 'almost') without his having to perform these acts consciously. This process might be characterized as 'taurocoprography' (to spare Dr. Shades' blushes, I have created this term to avoid an elided version of a word beginning with 'b' and containing a version of the 's' word).

I've tried to write (2) as sympathetically as I can, but as I re-read it, it seems to me simply not plausible that the kinds of distortions documented on this thread could be produced by somebody who was not clearly aware of what he was doing. So I am stuck with (1). He knew what he was doing, and he did it on purpose. He lied.

I realise that it is his writing, not his lecturing that is at issue here. But as I watch the notorious 'Horses lecture' video, even ignoring the intrusive added captions, I see somebody who seems to have no interest at all in helping his audience to weigh the evidence and arrive at a reasoned conclusion on that basis. His aim seems to be to do no more than to keep his plates spinning and to keep talking for as long and as rapidly as it takes to make the impression he wants to make - which is clearly 'Isn't Professor Nibley brilliant, and gee, it seems we don't have to worry about those horses any more.' It's more male bovine related activity, but this time the word is 'taurocoprology'.

If this man had been born in 1980 rather 1910, I don't think he would still have been in the Mormon church by the time he gave that lecture. He was too clever, and too interested in ferreting things out. The Internet would soon have seen to it that any shelf he might have constructed to keep his testimony would have snapped early on. But he was born when he was, and lived the life he lived. That seems to me to be something quite tragic - though he probably would not have seen it that way.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Blixa wrote:Oh yes. And the recovered language and scrying, too. Perhaps Dee and Kelley were on that Book of Mormon translation committee....


Oh they are deffo on that committee.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Johannes
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Johannes »

Chap wrote:I've tried to write (2) as sympathetically as I can, but as I re-read it, it seems to me simply not plausible that the kinds of distortions documented on this thread could be produced by somebody who was not clearly aware of what he was doing. So I am stuck with (1). He knew what he was doing, and he did it on purpose. He lied.


I think it's a continuum rather than 2 possibilities. You're Nibley and you come across a passage in, say, Justin Martyr which has a couple of vaguely Mormonesque words in it. You translate it in a way that makes it much more overtly Mormon. You may be consciously aware that you're departing from the orthodox way of translating the passage. But you're not lying, in the sense of speaking against your own mind. After all, you're only making things clearer. It's what Justin must have been trying to say, right? What with him being a Mormon and all.

Is this honest or dishonest? I'm not sure.

Speaking personally, my brief experience reading some of Nibley's writings has not endeared me to him, but then my view of him as a person is massively overshadowed by the allegations of child abuse.
_Johannes
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Johannes »

A propos of Dee, I'd be interested in any comments on my thread in the Telestial Kingdom.
_Chap
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Chap »

Chap wrote:I've tried to write (2) as sympathetically as I can, but as I re-read it, it seems to me simply not plausible that the kinds of distortions documented on this thread could be produced by somebody who was not clearly aware of what he was doing. So I am stuck with (1). He knew what he was doing, and he did it on purpose. He lied.


Johannes wrote:
I think it's a continuum rather than 2 possibilities. You're Nibley and you come across a passage in, say, Justin Martyr which has a couple of vaguely Mormonesque words in it. You translate it in a way that makes it much more overtly Mormon. You may be consciously aware that you're departing from the orthodox way of translating the passage. But you're not lying, in the sense of speaking against your own mind. After all, you're only making things clearer. It's what Justin must have been trying to say, right? What with him being a Mormon and all.

Is this honest or dishonest? I'm not sure.



It's the leaving bits out and putting bits in that worries me most. That's not just a matter of revealing the truly Mormon intent of an ancient author. I'd call that dishonest.

Finding new possibilities for the sense of a word in a complete translation is less blatant. But even then, you have a duty of frankness to your reader if everybody else has used a different, non-Mormon, sense for a word you translate. You need to be open about what you are doing, and make a case explicitly. Otherwise, you are deceiving your readers by giving them a false impression that your rendering is uncontroversial, rather than coming from way out in left field.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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