Cornelius Agrippa and Joseph Smith

[_Kishkumen]

It is interesting to consider what kind of influence passages such as this may have had on Joseph Smith:

Seeing there is a three-fold world--elementary, celestial, and intellectual--and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the virtues thereof, so that the very original and chief worker of all doth by angels, the heaven, stars, elements, animals, plants, metals, and stones convey from Himself the virtues of his omnipotency upon us, for whose service He made and created all these things: wise men conceive it in no way irrational that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each world, to the same very original world itself, the Maker of all things and First Cause, from whence all things are and proceed; and also to enjoy not only these virtues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new virtues from above.

[_Maksutov]

The hermetic evidence continues to accumulate. Great catch, Reverend.

[_Lemmie]

Speaking of hermetic evidence, I always felt like Swedenborg's record considerably influenced the way Joseph Smith related his own supernatural 'experiences':

Once, after meditating on heaven and hell, I began to desire a universal knowledge of the state of each. . . . While in this desire, I looked toward. . . ." [Swedenborg was met by angels who said]: "`If we look towards the east to the Lord we shall be enlightened and shall know.' . . . When they had said this, I wished them peace, and leaving them returned home. On reaching home, it was said to me from heaven, 'Examine those three universals both those above and those below, and afterwards we shall see them in your hand.'" (261)

..."After witnessing these sad and frightful scenes, I looked around and saw two angels standing not far from me and talking together." "I respectfully asked, 'Why are you here below?' They replied, We have been sent here from, heaven by command of the Lord, to speak with you.' ... Saying this, the two angels departed, and at a distance they appeared to be carried like Elijah in a chariot of fire and taken up into their heaven." (266)

"Some time later I entered a grove and while walking there in meditation ... I saw at some distance from me two angels conversing together and every now and then looking at me. Therefore I went nearer to them, and as I was approaching, they spoke to me and said, 'We perceive within us that you are meditating on the subject of which we are speaking...'" (267)

..."After this, the two angels and also I myself were seized with the desire to see those and we perceived that this desire was inspired in us to the end that they might be made known." (268)

"While in deep thought concerning this, lo, ....an angel stood by my side and said, 'Do you understand these sights?' I replied 'Partly.' He then said . . . . On hearing this, being kindled with a desire to see the palace I asked whether . . . it was granted to any one to enter in and view it."

"After saying this he wished to recount still further particulars concerning conjugial love on the basis of its effigies in that palace, but he said: 'Enough for the present. Inquire first whether these things are above common understanding. If they are, why more? but if not more will be disclosed.'" (270)

(Note that the angel is aware that the purpose of this whole conversation is that the things may be revealed.)
http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/articles ... /dlr65.htm

[_Lemmie]

And from the same source,

Swedenborg's inspiration required the presence of angelic societies. On one occasion it was said to him: "Rest a while; angel companions will be given you from the society next above them. Through these light will be given you by the Lord, and you will see marvels." * Elsewhere we read: "Presently, at the Lord's command, three angels descended from heaven and were associated with me, in order that I might speak from interior perception. . . . Then from an inspiration that came upon me I spoke . . . ." ** Inspiration, we are taught, is insertion into angelic societies. ***
http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/articles ... /dlr65.htm

JSJr's first version had two angels in it, maybe this was the starting influence or idea, which then evolved as he needed other aspects to come forward.

(Eta: sorry Kish, in my enthusiasm I hijacked your thread, I'll start my own Swedenborg thread if I feel the need to post again. )

[_Nightlion]

I think Joseph Smith might even had mentioned E Swedenborg, but how do you connect him with C Agrippa? Just because Joseph said he liked to read the German Bible?

Satan has been spouting becoming Gods from the time of the Fall of Man.

[_mentalgymnast]

It is interesting to consider what kind of influence passages such as this may have had on Joseph Smith:

Seeing there is a three-fold world--elementary, celestial, and intellectual--and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the virtues thereof, so that the very original and chief worker of all doth by angels, the heaven, stars, elements, animals, plants, metals, and stones convey from Himself the virtues of his omnipotency upon us, for whose service He made and created all these things: wise men conceive it in no way irrational that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each world, to the same very original world itself, the Maker of all things and First Cause, from whence all things are and proceed; and also to enjoy not only these virtues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new virtues from above.

Hi Kishkumen,

I suppose the question that comes into my mind with folks like Agrippa, Swedenborg, John Dee, and others, is whether or not they spoke/wrote elements of Truth or not. If it was all just philosophic fantasy and Joseph picked up on some of those elements and put it into his new religion, then it is what it is. A religious fantasy. OTOH, if they 'paid the price' and received and/or came upon certain elements of Truth then we have two ways to go. Joseph received the same Truth and integrated it into the fullness of the restoration...or he stole it from others and made it his own...preaching it to be from God. So, it is what it is. It's either from God or it's not.

Am I simplifying it too much?

To me it would make sense that if these other folks were receiving elements of Truth from eternity within the same general time frame that we see Joseph Smith coming along, that it would not be improbable that these elements of Truth would find themselves integrated into the 'fullness' of the restoration which comes along subsequent to all this. Maybe the thinking had been done. But again, if it's all philosophical fantasy, it is what it is and it doesn't matter a whole lot except that there's one more religion telling/teaching its adherents the truth as they see it along with all of the others.

I didn't even know who this Cornelius Agrippa chap was. I spent a bit of time today reading about him and some of his 'stuff' and then linked over to reading a bit about John Dee. These were quite the thinkers. You might think that if they were serious enough and thought enough...with the desire to get at Truth...that the Great God would give them some morsels to chew on.

Regards,
MG

[_Sanctorian]

You might think that if they were serious enough and thought enough...with the desire to get at Truth...that the Great God would give them some morsels to chew on.

Regards,
MG

Hey MG, the Great God has given you the truth and yet you don't adhere to it. In fact, I don't think you care about the truth at all. It seems to me you're more interested in the appearance of belief rather than actually doing something with the truth. So which is worse, Joseph borrowing the ideas of his time to create a religion or you continuing to perpetuate that religion by your lack of integrity to let the truth lead you out?

[_Kishkumen]

I suppose the question that comes into my mind with folks like Agrippa, Swedenborg, John Dee, and others, is whether or not they spoke/wrote elements of Truth or not. If it was all just philosophic fantasy and Joseph picked up on some of those elements and put it into his new religion, then it is what it is. A religious fantasy. OTOH, if they 'paid the price' and received and/or came upon certain elements of Truth then we have two ways to go. Joseph received the same Truth and integrated it into the fullness of the restoration...or he stole it from others and made it his own...preaching it to be from God. So, it is what it is. It's either from God or it's not.

Am I simplifying it too much?

Yes. Terribly. These questions are important to you because you need to fit everything into your theology, which is a variation of LDS theology. If one isn't invested in reaffirming the LDS answers, then your questions are meaningless and boring.

To me it would make sense that if these other folks were receiving elements of Truth from eternity within the same general time frame that we see Joseph Smith coming along, that it would not be improbable that these elements of Truth would find themselves integrated into the 'fullness' of the restoration which comes along subsequent to all this.

I am sure it is how you need to make sense of it in order to reaffirm your position. The simple answer is that these ideas were part of a cultural conversation in the West that had been going on for centuries before Joseph Smith et al. came on the scene. Joseph Smith and his associates added their chapter with its own twist to the discussion, but it is important for Mormons like you to make this chapter out to be the only true, complete, and sufficient chapter, while all others are inferior and partial forerunners. In reality, the conversation was going on before, it continued in different streams, and it continues today. Smith and his associates did interesting things that are worthy of historical examination, but they are not the center of the cosmos.

[_mentalgymnast]

I suppose the question that comes into my mind with folks like Agrippa, Swedenborg, John Dee, and others, is whether or not they spoke/wrote elements of Truth or not. If it was all just philosophic fantasy and Joseph picked up on some of those elements and put it into his new religion, then it is what it is. A religious fantasy. OTOH, if they 'paid the price' and received and/or came upon certain elements of Truth then we have two ways to go. Joseph received the same Truth and integrated it into the fullness of the restoration...or he stole it from others and made it his own...preaching it to be from God. So, it is what it is. It's either from God or it's not.

Am I simplifying it too much?

Yes. Terribly. These questions are important to you because you need to fit everything into your theology, which is a variation of LDS theology. If one isn't invested in reaffirming the LDS answers, then your questions are meaningless and boring.

To me it would make sense that if these other folks were receiving elements of Truth from eternity within the same general time frame that we see Joseph Smith coming along, that it would not be improbable that these elements of Truth would find themselves integrated into the 'fullness' of the restoration which comes along subsequent to all this.

I am sure it is how you need to make sense of it in order to reaffirm your position. The simple answer is that these ideas were part of a cultural conversation in the West that had been going on for centuries before Joseph Smith et al. came on the scene. Joseph Smith and his associates added their chapter with its own twist to the discussion, but it is important for Mormons like you to make this chapter out to be the only true, complete, and sufficient chapter, while all others are inferior and partial forerunners. In reality, the conversation was going on before, it continued in different streams, and it continues today. Smith and his associates did interesting things that are worthy of historical examination, but they are not the center of the cosmos.

I find it interesting that in a 'restoration of all things' that these ideas which had been discussed were then encapsulated within the 'fullness of the gospel' framework. Yes, it is possible...and from the outside looking in... to simply shrug it off and say that there isn't any metaphysical connection and/or it's "boring". To me, however, it's these connections between the serious philosophical and even magical meanderings/searchings of Agrippa/Swedenborg and Joseph Smith's revelations that provide food for thought.

Not boring. Not meaningless.

I don't think that these "forerunners" are "inferior". They did what they did within the time/place that they lived in. The question for me is whether the Great God may have given them a 'taste' of eternity because of their sincere investigation/pondering on those things. That their thinking, and those of others, were coming into the stream of consciousness/conversation at the time of Joseph Smith...I find fascinating.

I look at the investigations/meanderings of great thinkers as potentially, and at least in some cases, being 'inspired' by the Great God of the Universe. Especially as those ideas pool together from one thinker to the next and rise to the top, so to speak. There is, obviously, the other side of the coin that some ideas pooled together by other 'leading lights' may lead away from religious and/or metaphysical belief.

It seems to go both ways. Hasn't it always been so?

Regards,
MG

[_Kishkumen]

I find it interesting that in a 'restoration of all things' that these ideas which had been discussed were then encapsulated within the 'fullness of the gospel' framework. Yes, it is possible...and from the outside looking in... to simply shrug it off and say that there isn't any metaphysical connection and/or it's "boring". To me, however, it's these connections between the serious philosophical and even magical meanderings/searchings of Agrippa/Swedenborg and Joseph Smith's revelations that provide food for thought.

Your rhetoric is dripping with the Mormocentrism I am criticizing. What restoration of all things? Were *all things* restored? Really? Is there really a "fullness of the Gospel" in what Joseph Smith did? Can you say that Agrippa and Swedenborg did not receive revelation, whereas Joseph Smith's work is superior because it is revelation? Let's put aside the question of metaphysical connections and address the problem of using Mormonism as the stick whereby all else is measured. This is what is boring and meaningless.

I don't think that these "forerunners" are "inferior". They did what they did within the time/place that they lived in. The question for me is whether the Great God may have given them a 'taste' of eternity because of their sincere investigation/pondering on those things. That their thinking, and those of others, were coming into the stream of consciousness/conversation at the time of Joseph Smith...I find fascinating.

Again, you still see them as forerunners and you imagine that they only had a "taste of eternity," whereas (implicitly) Joseph Smith had a whole banquet of it. Who says? Joseph Smith? President Monson? Your feelings?

I look at the investigations/meanderings of great thinkers as potentially, and at least in some cases, being 'inspired' by the Great God of the Universe. Especially as those ideas pool together from one thinker to the next and rise to the top, so to speak. There is, obviously, the other side of the coin that some ideas pooled together by other 'leading lights' may lead away from religious and/or metaphysical belief.

Yes, potentially, but not affirmatively so as in the case of Joseph Smith, right?

OK, we get it. Joseph Smith is, in your eyes, the real McCoy. These other guys are forerunners, who philosophize (practically a dirty word in Mormonism) or "meander" in magic. I can't expect you to say anything different, I suppose. But it is, from my perspective, predictable, boring, and myopic.