Leaked videos of meetings with the Q15

[_Sanctorian]

MG, the problem is twofold; you're trying to determine Oak's and Packer's true motivation and second, you're defending what you believe is their motivation.

Why not just say something along the lines of "yep, I don't agree with them"?

As Kish pointed out, their actions do not resemble what you are suggesting. That's the insensitive part of your statement (even the long version). I have little doubt their actions are tied directly to what they believe is God's will, but that doesn't make it any less wrong what they are doing. And guess what, you don't have to agree/defend their wrong position.

[_grindael]

No matter which angle you look at the gay teen suicide issue from, it is sad and unfortunate. I think that Elder Oaks and Packer...when he was alive...were and are caught between a rock and a hard place. My guess is that they mourn with those that mourn but are torn knowing that they are under obligation...to the Almighty as far as they are concerned...to put 'one man and one woman' out in front as the 'God ordained' teachings/practice in regards to the covenant of marriage. I don't envy them. They are in a place where I definitely would not want to be.

You won't find them where you will be. You will be in hell Their hell was co-existing with a-holes like you!

WHINING:

I have never run across folks that get more bent out of shape over things than I have here. Wow. You don't know me and yet you feel free to judge me as being like unto an anus. And that I'm going to hell. As though you are the eternal judge. What a bloated ego/sense of self you have! A GOD!

I have relatives...three that I know of...that are gay. They are welcome in our family. They are not shunned. As far as I know they are happy and have adjusted to their sexuality in a way that serves them well and they live life in a productive way. I am not AT ALL sure why you and Kish and others would look at me personally as somehow being a monster for having expressed the thoughts that I did.

It seems as though you need to have a live 'whipping boy'? Does it make you feel good to call someone else the name of your own anatomical release valve for excreting waste?

I know, the answer is probably yes. And, you think it is warranted. And...

Nonetheless, I think if we were to sit down face to face and you knew who I am and what I'm all about you would likely not picture me as the orifice to the intestinal tract. As I've mentioned previously, when you're part of a consensual group as you are here it is really difficult to be kind to the outliers. And all kinds of logical/reasonable reasons can be found for acting that way. You will find support for expressing almost whatever you want in whatever way you want. Isn't it wonderful?

END WHINING

What I said in my previous post I think is the reality 'on the ground'. Why should I be faulted for stating what may actually be the truth from the perspective of those folks I am referring to? I'm talking to you too Kishkumen.

This is interesting. You mentioned the suicides in ONE SHORT SENTENCE. The rest of your post was an apology for Mormon LEADERSHIP. This is the "reality on the ground"? You said (paraphrasing)

No matter which way you look at it... [the suicides] it's sad and unfortunate. END.

NOW THE APOLOGY:

Elder Oaks and Packer...when he was alive...were and are caught between a rock and a hard place. My guess is that they mourn with those that mourn but are torn knowing that they are under obligation...to the Almighty as far as they are concerned...to put 'one man and one woman' out in front as the 'God ordained' teachings/practice in regards to the covenant of marriage. I don't envy them. They are in a place where I definitely would not want to be.

Who are you speaking for here? The Mormon LEADERSHIP not the people who committed suicide. You are DEFENDING them, you are right there with them, you just put yourself IN THE SAME PLACE THEY ARE IN.

BACK TO THE WHINING:

You guys sound awfully similar to the folks that respond with hatred and vitriol in the Trib. comments section anytime there is a pile up against the church or Mormons in general. Foul language and absolute disgust, etc. I can empathize with the fact that you have strong feelings in regards to this topic. But I would suggest that you think carefully about who you're going to tie up to the whipping post. Why hold me personally responsible over something that I have no control over? Go figure...

You do have control over what you write. Is it any wonder Candygal wrote what she did? You are defending a policy (and the men who claimed it was a "revelation"), that she thinks is evil. But you caveat it with, wow, I don't envy them. But you must, because you are sticking up for them AND THEIR POLICY. Do you really think that here, you would not get pushback on that? So... stop whining. Just stop it. You're an apologist. You can do better than that, right?

[_mentalgymnast]

You do have control over what you write... So... stop whining. Just stop it. You're an apologist. You can do better than that, right?

On another thread we are discussing whether or not this place is a good fit for NOM's. It is this kind of post put up by grindael that would make it very hard for NOM's to enjoy this place as an avenue for discussion/conversation.

I'll get automatic push back on this statement. Oh well...

Boring. Tedious.

That's the problem. Everything is challenged. Everything is pushback. Not that there isn't a time and a place for that. And this board may be that place.

But again, I think that NOM's ought to look elsewhere. This isn't the place to hang out.

Reading grindael's posts are a treat, but they're very predictable and it's so easy to get sucked into arguing/contention. For some of us, that's not what it's all about.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

Reading [ ]'s posts are a treat, but they're very predictable and it's so easy to get sucked into arguing/contention. For some of us, that's not what it's all about.

Projection, thy name is mentalgymnast! (so's yours, predictability. Don't be jealous.)

jeez, mg. you are really obvious today. Are you a troll?

[_Chap]

That's the problem. Everything is challenged. Everything is pushback. Not that there isn't a time and a place for that. And this board may be that place.

Er, yes. The board is called 'Mormon Discussions'.

On its homepage, it says:

Mormon Discussions. . . Because we all want the truth.

Here is a place of free discussion.

Reading grindael's posts are a treat, but they're very predictable and it's so easy to get sucked into arguing/contention. ...

Yes, horribly predictable.

I mean, raise a topic and he hits you with copious citations from original Mormon documents bearing directly on that topic, often documents you have never heard of before. I mean!! That just ruins the conversation, doesn't it? The man is just so distracting if all you want to do is state your point of view without anyone discussing on a rational and evidential basis whether you are right or wrong.

[_grindael]

You do have control over what you write... So... stop whining. Just stop it. You're an apologist. You can do better than that, right?

On another thread we are discussing whether or not this place is a good fit for NOM's. It is this kind of post put up by grindael that would make it very hard for NOM's to enjoy this place as an avenue for discussion/conversation.

I'll get automatic push back on this statement. Oh well...

Boring. Tedious.

That's the problem. Everything is challenged. Everything is pushback. Not that there isn't a time and a place for that. And this board may be that place.

But again, I think that NOM's ought to look elsewhere. This isn't the place to hang out.

Reading grindael's posts are a treat, but they're very predictable and it's so easy to get sucked into arguing/contention. For some of us, that's not what it's all about.

Don't you do anything but whine? I mean, really. And you are absolutely right, when it comes to you I'm totally predictable. I'm going to call you out on your apologist BS, EVERY TIME. And yeah, arguing/contention is not for you... like when you told someone who didn't want to continue a conversation that it was because they allegedly could not control it. Yeah, that's NOT contentious.

As for NOM, here is what NOM poster cwald said:

Right. The problem is, I don't trust your opinion or take on things anymore. Sorry. Your record here does not merit me believing anything you just stated about GC. Your brand of Mental Gymnastics to justify the Mormon take on the world is deplorable in my opinion.

Please bring back NOM....

edited to add. MG, you remind me much more of a stayLDS poster than a NOM poster. Your "theology" and reasoning would not go well even on sites like NOM the last few years i'm guessing.

So, who do I believe? Hmmmm. That's not a hard one. Bye.

And, I read through the NOM thread. All of those that claimed they were users at NOM didn't seem to have any problems, the only one that disrupted that thread and created contention was... YOU. Whining, complaining, telling them this isn't the place for them. Like you are the NOM god or something. No, no problems with them, but with YOU... that's a different story.

[_mentalgymnast]

Reading [ ]'s posts are a treat, but they're very predictable and it's so easy to get sucked into arguing/contention. For some of us, that's not what it's all about.

Projection, thy name is mentalgymnast! (so's yours, predictability. Don't be jealous.)

jeez, mg. you are really obvious today. Are you a troll?

I'll stick with and am comfortable with what I said. Interpret it how you may. You can consider and/or project my thoughts/opinions and cast them any way you want to. We will simply have to agree to disagree on my intent and/or whether or not I was stating the truth.

Regards,
MG

[_grindael]

This isn't the place to hang out.

Please, take your own advice. After all, that's what you are advising them.

[_mentalgymnast]

That's the problem. Everything is challenged. Everything is pushback. Not that there isn't a time and a place for that. And this board may be that place.

Er, yes. The board is called 'Mormon Discussions'.

Yep. And it fulfills its purpose very well for those folks that find this board to fit their niche.

On its homepage, it says:
Mormon Discussions. . . Because we all want the truth.

Yep. Seen it.

Here is a place of free discussion.

Yep. That's the beauty of it.

Reading grindael's posts are a treat, but they're very predictable and it's so easy to get sucked into arguing/contention. ...

Yes, horribly predictable.

I'm referring to the rudeness and incivility.

I mean, raise a topic and he hits you with copious citations from original Mormon documents bearing directly on that topic, often documents you have never heard of before.

I've personally complimented him in this regard.

I mean!! That just ruins the conversation, doesn't it?

I don't think so. But this isn't what I'm referring to.

The man is just so distracting if all you want to do is state your point of view without anyone discussing on a rational and evidential basis whether you are right or wrong.

Thing is, we each feel like we're 'right' or 'wrong'. And sometimes, if not fairly often, those that choose a path of faith are at a disadvantage in some respects. And I've repeatedly owned up to that in one way or another many times. So as far as 'rationality' goes, I am fully cognizant of the fact that I will be 'wrong' at times because I can't prove that which cannot be proven on a rational basis. But that doesn't prove that I'm WRONG...as far as I'm concerned...but it does get me, and other faithful saints in a place where we reach a dead end at some point when speaking with and/or conversing with skeptics/rationalists.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

This isn't the place to hang out.

Please, take your own advice. After all, that's what you are advising them.

I appreciate your suggestion, grindael. I will take it under advisement. What I do or don't do will not be dependent on your wishes/suggestions however. To be honest, I don't know that I value many of your personal reflections/suggestions, etc., although I do value the resources you post online.

Even though, as I mentioned recently, you may...I don't know this for a fact...be a decent/moral human being, father, husband, and one that provides service to the community, etc.

If so, you are to be commended sir.

Regards,
MG