What makes Trump a Fascist?

[_Kevin Graham]

I've seen some very good points but I thought it would be helpful to make a list of every thing that points to him being a fascist because I have a feeling today's list is only going to be much longer before his first term ends. EA, do you want to go first?

[_cwald]

I'll go.

The use of ethnic stereotypes and exploitation of fear of foreigners is directly out of a fascist’s recipe book. “Making the country great again” sounds exactly like the fascist movements.

[_EAllusion]

Remember how Droopy, ldsfaqs et. al. used to love to describe liberals as fascists and fascism as a liberal phenomenon? I once replied to that with this post:

EAllusion wrote:

Fascism is a radically authoritarian, hyper nationalist movement.

Fascism involves:

1) Intense focus on displays of nationalist symbolism and ritual and an emphasis on belonging to the group through participation in this.
2) Opposition to others spoiling national purity, usually in the form of xenophobia/anti-immigrant sentiments.
3) Strong support of the military, increased military power, and an increased willingness to use the military coupled with an obsession over maintaining national security.
4) Support of strong police state powers where the population is rigidly controlled through wide latitude given to the police to record, organize, search, and distribute evidence against its citizens and/or a court system friendly to conviction of the same.
5) Obsession with harsh penalties for perceived crimes against the state.
6) Corporatist economics where the government partners with national business leaders to give selective advantages to give them a competitive edge. This occurs in exchange for loyalty and willingness to back the national goals of the fascist party. Business and political leaders form the ruling elite.
7) Tight regulation of mass media through either government ownership of the media or rigid censorship of it.
8) Identification of a particular group of people as the unifying cause to oppose, justify the above, and assign blame for the nation's ills to: The scapegoat. It may be a ethnic or religious minority (Jews) or a political group (socialists) or something else (Muslim terrorists), but the important part is that the idea of that group takes on a scapegoat role.

In Droopy's political reckoning, every single person properly labeled a conservative is further away from this than every single person properly labeled a modern liberal. Think about that.


Suppose you have a voter who:

1) Thinks that there is something suspicious and anti-American in someone who does not stand for the pledge of allegiance or national anthem. He always participates in these with aggressive confidence. He even recently got a flag pole installed so he can have an American flag waving right outside his house. He thinks that politicians who do not wear an American flag pin on their lapel are untrustworthy and might be hiding their anti-Americanism.

2) Thinks English language should be the official language of the United States. He supports an aggressive deportation policy, strict limits on immigration - especially for unskilled workers - and heavy sanctions for businesses who employ illegal immigrants. He wants more border security personal and a giant wall built along the US-Mexico border. He thinks immigrants are a dangerous drain on the American economy that is propelling the nation towards a destitute state.

3) Has "support our troops" ribbons on both of his vehicles and in the corner of his living room window. He gets angry to the point of near frenzy when he hears people question the heroism and sacrifice of US troops. He once went to a country music concert where the band didn't take a moment to acknowledge veterans in the audience and thank them for their service. It upset him so much that he brought it up every time someone asked him how the concert was. He favors substantial increases in US military spending and is worried that current spending levels leave US security vulnerable. He frequently is heard talking about his concern over US national security. He's suspicious that his political enemies might secretly want to undermine US security. He has favored every recent US military intervention, and supported several, such as bombing Iran, that did not come to fruition.

4) Supports the PATRIOT act and thinks those who oppose it are undermining the safety and well-being of US citizens. He favors the intelligence gathering activities of the NSA, FBI, CIA, and local police even when it includes warrantless searches and data collection. He favors indefinite detention without due process for people the government has indicated are terrorists. Likewise, he favors drone attacks on groups of people where the government has indicated terrorists are. He thinks people who have nothing to hide should not be concerned with the police being given these tools so they can do their jobs more effectively.

5) Thinks not enough attention is paid to victims' rights. It's always about a criminals' rights. He thinks that people often get off too easy for their crimes and it disgusts him. He would like to see a lot more crimes have mandatory minimums higher than they currently are and more crimes result in life without parole. People released from prison should have restrictions on where they can live and work and should not be allowed to vote. More crimes should get the death penalty, and people on death row shouldn't get as many appeals as they do. It takes too long. He thinks prisons coddle prisoners too much - Do you know some prisoners have cable?! - and would like to see them be more restrictive. He thinks some of his political enemies' actions border on treason - he's even a fan of books that outright call his political opposition traitors - and occasionally wonders where the line will finally be drawn and people will start doing something about their Anti-American crimes before it is too late.

6) Favors federal subsidies and tax break programs for key US industries, such as petrochemicals. He supports politicians who propose policies that will free up job-creators by reducing their tax burden, removing oppressive regulation, and help them compete against international counterparts. His views on science, such as climate change, are derived from material funded by US industry and thinks it appropriate that they play a large role in writing national legislation. He favors politicians who are themselves major business leaders, since they know what it takes to be economically successful.

7) Thinks people hide behind the first amendment to produce filth that causes the moral decay of the people. He thinks the first amendment was never meant to protect all the obscene material in the media and favors more censorship of the media to promote the moral fiber of the nation. He half-jokes about the need for anti-American sentiments in the media to be punishable at least by fine. Half-jokes.

8) Is convinced that socialists, communists, and terrorists are in some loose conspiracy to destroy the United States and most political proposals he disagrees with can be attributed to them being a clandestine attempt on the part of these groups to destroy the US from within backed by easily duped followers.

This voter, in Droopy's view, is much further from being a fascist than, say, Rachel Maddow.

I'm just quoting it before I answer more seriously to point out how on the money I described a proto-typical Trump voter here before that was a thing.

[_EAllusion]

So, taking my list from that post:

1. Intense focus on displays of nationalist symbolism and ritual and an emphasis on belonging to the group through participation in this.
2. Opposition to others spoiling national purity, usually in the form of xenophobia/anti-immigrant sentiments.
3. Strong support of the military, increased military power, and an increased willingness to use the military coupled with an obsession over maintaining national security.
4. Support of strong police state powers where the population is rigidly controlled through wide latitude given to the police to record, organize, search, and distribute evidence against its citizens and/or a court system friendly to conviction of the same.
5. Obsession with harsh penalties for perceived crimes against the state.
6. Corporatist economics where the government partners with national business leaders to give selective advantages to give them a competitive edge. This occurs in exchange for loyalty and willingness to back the national goals of the fascist party. Business and political leaders form the ruling elite.
7. Tight regulation of mass media through either government ownership of the media or rigid censorship of it.
8. Identification of a particular group of people as the unifying cause to oppose, justify the above, and assign blame for the nation's ills to: The scapegoat. It may be a ethnic or religious minority (Jews) or a political group (socialists) or something else (Muslim terrorists), but the important part is that the idea of that group takes on a scapegoat role.

I hope anyone could see how Donald Trump would fit that that like a glove. He could not check all those boxes any harder. That's what I think fascism is. For a contrary view, here's a vox piece arguing why Trump is a far-right populist rather than a neo-fascist:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/ ... mp-fascism

There's actually a lot of back and forth on this, with respectable people rather ardently picking either side depending mostly on what they think of as the key elements of fascism. I view the contrary piece I linked as engaging in the wrong hair-splitting. If you google the subject, there's an endless supply of essays with support from experts on either side of the fence. The description I used above is not my own, but rather a summary of a resemblances model I'm a fan of. I tend to see Trump as a modernized form of a politician like Mussolini. The main argument against Trump being a fascist is that, at least for now, he's hasn't called for extreme violence to achieve his aims that seems to have gone hand-in-hand with historical fascism. For a brief think-piece on this, I like this article:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ribes.html

Outside of all this, there's also Trump's alarming tendency to use fascist terms and slogans. It's hard to place too much emphasis on it all by itself, but when coupled with his positions/instincts, it's more foreboding. When his transition team is talking about making the trains run on time, you have to wonder to what extent we are being trolled.

[_Kevin Graham]

excellent

[_cinepro]

I agree with Scott Adams on this one:

Trump’s critics like to label him a fascist. I didn’t know what that word meant, so I made the mistake of looking it up.

It turns out that no one agrees what the word means. So if you use the word, you’re literally acting like an idiot, because the word has no definition except for the one in your mind. It is sort of like talking in tongues and wondering why no one else is nodding in agreement.

A writer for SLATE, Jamelle Bouie, recently referenced the Umberto Eco 14-element definition of fascism to analyze Trump (and decided it didn’t quite fit.) I will do the same, below.

Generally speaking, if your word has a fourteen-element definition with a “pick any” quality to it, you don’t have a word. You have a list. So I would say that “fascism” is – first and foremost – not an actual word with meaning (agreed meaning) in the English language. So if you use the word as a label, you are literally talking nonsense.

But just for fun, let’s see how well the Umberto Eco definition fits Trump. I’ll do the points one-at-a-time.

1.“The Cult of Tradition”, combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism.”

Trump Tweets from his helicopter. He builds big, modern things. I have not seen him reject any modernism.

2. “The Cult of Action for Action’s Sake”, which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.”

Trump is a business person. He values only action that has a point. Trump has attacked specific elements of science (climate change) but is generally pro-science. I would imagine that scientist themselves have disagreements with parts of science.

3. “Disagreement Is Treason” - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.”

I haven’t seen Trump label critics treasonous. He has labelled individuals treasonous, but only because they did actual treason(ish) things – in his opinion – such as stealing secrets.

4. “Fear of Difference”, which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.”

Trump says he loves Hispanics and loves African-Americans. His big issue is about border control, which is an issue shared by the entire country. Granted, he has a different approach to it. We can’t know what his secret thoughts are, but based on his words and actions, Trump would deport his own cousins if they were here illegally.

5. “Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class”, fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.”

Trump doesn’t blame the poor for the plight of the middle class. He wants to tax the super rich and help the middle class. He also wants to keep social programs strong for the poor. Every American politician tries to appeal to the frustrated middle class.

6. “Obsession with a Plot” and the hyping-up of an enemy threat; This often involves an appeal to xenophobia (such as the German elite’s ‘fear'of the 1930s Jewish populace’s businesses and well-doings, see also anti-Semitism) with an identification of their being an internal security threat: He also cites Pat Robertson’s book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.”

The threat of terror is real. And 11 million illegals have a real economic impact. Neither issue seems hyped to observers.

6. “Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy” because “Life is Permanent Warfare” - there must always be an enemy to fight; Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to NOT build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.”

Trump is anti-war (unless necessary). He opposed the second Iraq war.

7. “Contempt for the Weak” - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero; for example: the 1930s Germans, especially Hitler labeled Jews inferior humans thus weak as well as the physically disabled, the mentally retarded and mentally ill as weak—thus these “weak” or unwanteds were eliminated (executed) or “exterminated” (the Jews, or even Germans with disabilities).”

No sign of anything like that, except when talking about “weak” politicians. Trump is a big supporter of Wounded Warriors. He has contempt for critics, but those come in all types and sizes. His daughter is Jewish by conversion. And so on. You can suspect he has dark private thoughts, but based on how the talks and acts, he appears to love anyone who loves him back.

8. “Selective Populism” - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but directed by a dictator; This casts doubt upon a democratic institution, because the leader and government “no longer represent the Voice of the People”.

Too vague to be useful as part of a definition. Don’t all politicians pick their fights?

9. “Newspeak” - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.”

Trump is the opposite. He uses plain language with no jargon. You might think you hear silent racist whistles in his speeches, but that has more to do with context and suspicion than his vocabulary. His words are grade-school simple and jargon-free.

10. “Non-truths & Lying/Spread of Propaganda"

Is Trump the one politician stretching the truth?

Bottom line, fascism is the sort of insult you use when you have bad feeling about a person in power. It is an abandonment of reason.

Just for fun, the next time one of your friends labels Trump or anyone else a fascist, ask them to explain that opinion based on the 14-point elements laid out by Umberto Eco. You will sound like the smart one in the room. Your friend, not so much.


http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1345316905 ... is-fascism

That being said, we're still two months out from Trump actually becoming President. If he does start to act in an authoritarian, aggressively-warlike manner with oppressive actions towards his critics, then I will join the revolution in unseating him.

Heck, his position on the second amendment is probably the best indicator that he isn't a fascist. However you feel about gun rights and gun control, a fascist leader isn't going to want his enemies and opposition to have access to guns!

[_DoubtingThomas]

That being said, we're still two months out from Trump actually becoming President. If he does start to act in an authoritarian, aggressively-warlike manner with oppressive actions towards his critics, then I will join the revolution in unseating him.

Heck, his position on the second amendment is probably the best indicator that he isn't a fascist. However you feel about gun rights and gun control, a fascist leader isn't going to want his enemies and opposition to have access to guns!

1. Trump is an idiot
2. A science denier
3. Has no knowledge on how our world economy works
4. Doesn't have impressive college education,
5. Has no experience
6. He is out of touch with the working class, he was born with a silver spoon


I predict a Trump presidency is going to kill the Republican party! It's a good thing!

[_EAllusion]

I agree with Scott Adams on this one:

Agreeing with Scott Adams on anything should give you pause about whether you are thinking clearly. If Scott Adams said drinking water was I good idea, you should spend a minute or two rethinking your position on water. Scott Adams is crazy-wrong on just about every subject known to man.

I'm not sure if I should go bullet by bullet here, but he is egregiously wrong on every single point to the extent that you have to wonder what universe he lives in. My personal favorite is that he doesn't label disagreement as treason. He only uses the language of betrayal and treason toward people he thinks are treasonous (even though they aren't and they just happen to be opponents of him.) Gee, with a loophole like that, how can that criterion apply to anyone? Or that he argues against an impoverished vocabulary - i.e. simple sloganeering - by pointing out Trump's um, grade-school simple sloganeering. Or that he simply points out that he opposed the 2nd Iraq War (a lie) in order to argue against Trump being bellicose (also not true). It's really wall-to-wall and deserves more time to refute than it took to write.

[_EAllusion]

Trump has repeatedly expressed his willingness to break with conservative orthodoxy and favor gun-control measures, incidentally. He might pander to the cultural identity of conservatives by trying to scare them about Clinton taking their guns, but that doesn't change the fact that he's pro-gun control himself. It's no coincidence that one of the few areas of agreement they found in the debates was supporting banning people put on the terror watchlist from purchasing firearms.

[_Some Schmo]

1.“The Cult of Tradition”, combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism.”

Trump Tweets from his helicopter. He builds big, modern things. I have not seen him reject any modernism.

That's where I stopped reading that tripe. Jesus Christ, how daft do you have to be to not understand that Twitter and helicopters are not the modernism referenced? What the hell does Make America Great Again mean if it's not a rejection of modernism?

You're buying this BS, cinepro?