The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

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_Physics Guy
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _Physics Guy »

Daniel C. Peterson wrote:There’s really no excuse, under the circumstances, for ignorantly mischaracterizing what these two highly trained linguists and scholars have had to say.

Peterson does not dare, however, to offer any succinct explanation of just what these scholars have really said. He accuses critics of having crudely misinterpreted them, but offers no hint at what the right interpretation would be. Instead he provides links to large collections of papers, and merely implies that these long reams of text are relevant and substantial. This way of citing academic authority seems to be a common ploy by Mormon apologists.

Far be it from an apologist like Peterson to summarize Skousen's and Carmack's positions. That would be sticking his neck out. For if he laid out a succinct summary in plain words, why, oh dear: it might not look impressive. And then Peterson himself would be in trouble from everyone. Fellow apologists would blame him for making Mormonism look bad by trivializing the subtle work of Skousen and Carmack, while critics would mock him for having been impressed by ridiculous claims.

No, no, no: this way's better. Make the critics have to work first just to guess what points the apologists are claiming to make; then wait and see how the critics attack those points. Perhaps their attacks will have genuine flaws, and you can pounce on them; or at least you may be able to spot an ambiguity or irrelevance on which you can make a show of pouncing as if it were fatal. If the criticisms are all too damnably cogent? That's the best part. You can simply sneer at the critics for having misconstrued the apologist position so badly, and kicked down a straw man. Send them back to your great wall of texts, to guess again at your argument, and congratulate yourself on a victory.

A brilliant strategy, yes. Except for this. Anyone who has ever really had a strong point to make, about anything, will recognize that the wall-of-text strategy is something no-one would use if they had a strong point. If you have a strong point, you can't spit it out fast enough; and far from hedging and hiding, you don't mind oversimplifying, because you know that as soon as anybody grasps the basic idea, they'll see how the nuances fall into place.

Apologetics by allusion is the opposite of that. You never explain, but only mention; you pound on authority and never take the risk of presenting anything that should stand on its own. You decline to spoon-feed. You demand engagement. Perhaps people who haven't spent much time in academia are impressed by this style because they imagine that it's how real experts think and express themselves, but quite the opposite is true. Apologetics by allusion is a damning confession that you've got nothing — and at some level, you know it.
_churchistrue
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _churchistrue »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
grindael wrote:Noted. But there are those like DCP, Nibley, and a host of others that have/did not stopped/stop "believing in apologetics."


I agree, some will continue to believe no mater what, but I don't think most Mormon scholars and scientists continue with apologetics.


I think it's the opposite with some. They stop believing but still do Mormon apologetics.
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_Dr. Shades
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

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PhysicsGuy, that was an EXCELLENT analysis of this whole phenomenon. I don't know that I've seen a better explanation of that particular Mopologetic tactic.

THANK YOU for typing that up! It was brilliant.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_churchistrue
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _churchistrue »

Dr. Shades wrote:PhysicsGuy, that was an EXCELLENT analysis of this whole phenomenon. I don't know that I've seen a better explanation of that particular Mopologetic tactic.

THANK YOU for typing that up! It was brilliant.



I find the Skousen-Carmack work fascinating. I think PhysicsGuy does a good job explaining why mainstream Apologists like Dr. Peterson can't be too specific.

sidenote: Peterson is doing the same thing with Brian Stubbs' material, but I think for different reasons. In that case I think it's simply due to that it's shoddy work.

Skousen-Carmack are not doing shoddy work, but I'm not sure they're doing anything that helps the cause for Book of Mormon historicity. If Peterson is too specific with the praise, then he would have to support the ramifications of Skousen-Carmack's work. Which is, according to my understanding, that a non-perfect/non-divine source translated the Book of Mormon into Early Modern English English through a very loose process, with the translator or translators free to expand the text. Then the text was massaged/updated from the 1600's until 1830, at which point God read the text and inserted it into the seer stone. Pretty wild.

The biggest issue, though, that I see with the Skousen-Carmack work, is that I don't think they've demonstrated how impossible it would be for someone in Joseph's time to come up with the Early Modern English Book of Mormon English by simply mimicking the ancient style.

The reason I find their work fascinating is that it gives us insight to the text, which I think is important. As someone who accepts the Book of Mormon as non-ancient, 19th century scripture, created by Joseph Smith with divine inspiration, anything that gives us more insight into the text, I believe is important.
Sharing a view of non-historical/metaphorical "New Mormonism" on my blog http://www.churchistrue.com/
_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

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churchistrue wrote:The biggest issue, though, that I see with the Skousen-Carmack work, is that I don't think they've demonstrated how impossible it would be for someone in Joseph's time to come up with the Early Modern English Book of Mormon English by simply mimicking the ancient style.

No, this isn't the biggest issue with their work, unless one accepts a priori a divine origin of the Book of Mormon.

For the rest of the world, the biggest issue with their work is the impossibility of any other explanation of Early Modern English in the Book of Mormon other than coincidental. Only believers approach their results with the view that coincidence fails to explain what Skousen-Carmack are finding.

Regardless of how scholarly their work appears, the very foundation of what they are doing is faulty.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_churchistrue
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _churchistrue »

Fence Sitter wrote:
churchistrue wrote:The biggest issue, though, that I see with the Skousen-Carmack work, is that I don't think they've demonstrated how impossible it would be for someone in Joseph's time to come up with the Early Modern English Book of Mormon English by simply mimicking the ancient style.

No, this isn't the biggest issue with their work, unless one accepts a priori a divine origin of the Book of Mormon.

For the rest of the world, the biggest issue with their work is the impossibility of any other explanation of Early Modern English in the Book of Mormon other than coincidental. Only believers approach their results with the view that coincidence fails to explain what Skousen-Carmack are finding.

Regardless of how scholarly their work appears, the very foundation of what they are doing is faulty.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think I disagree. Until God is proven dead and every person with at least a few working brain cells all agree that there is no such thing as spiritual inspiration, I disagree the foundation is entirely faulty. But if they're going to prove what they want to prove, they'll have to do a better job on the side of showing why this kind of thing couldn't have been mimicked successfully in the 19th century.
Sharing a view of non-historical/metaphorical "New Mormonism" on my blog http://www.churchistrue.com/
_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _Fence Sitter »

churchistrue wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think I disagree. Until God is proven dead and every person with at least a few working brain cells all agree that there is no such thing as spiritual inspiration, I disagree the foundation is entirely faulty. But if they're going to prove what they want to prove, they'll have to do a better job on the side of showing why this kind of thing couldn't have been mimicked successfully in the 19th century.

Spiritual inspiration is simply another word for deus ex machina and lends nothing to a discussion on the merits of someone's work unless both sides in the discussion are willing to allow for a specific divine intervention as an explanation. You stated that the biggest problem in their work was showing why it couldn't be mimicked in the 19th century. That is only true for those who are willing to consider other possibilities like deus ex machina.

Do you honestly believe Skousan would be pursuing this work if he thought that a 19th century explanation was the only possibility? Clearly he thinks that by showing a strong connection to 16th century usage, he is raising an issue that cannot be explained by anything other than divine intervention. That is why his foundation is faulty, because when he depends on a "God did it" explanation, it is a non testable conclusion that has no place in scholarship.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_churchistrue
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _churchistrue »

Fence Sitter wrote:
churchistrue wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think I disagree. Until God is proven dead and every person with at least a few working brain cells all agree that there is no such thing as spiritual inspiration, I disagree the foundation is entirely faulty. But if they're going to prove what they want to prove, they'll have to do a better job on the side of showing why this kind of thing couldn't have been mimicked successfully in the 19th century.

Spiritual inspiration is simply another word for deus ex machina and lends nothing to a discussion on the merits of someone's work unless both sides in the discussion are willing to allow for a specific divine intervention as an explanation. You stated that the biggest problem in their work was showing why it couldn't be mimicked in the 19th century. That is only true for those who are willing to consider other possibilities like deus ex machina.

Do you honestly believe Skousan would be pursuing this work if he thought that a 19th century explanation was the only possibility? Clearly he thinks that by showing a strong connection to 16th century usage, he is raising an issue that cannot be explained by anything other than divine intervention. That is why his foundation is faulty, because when he depends on a "God did it" explanation, it is a non testable conclusion that has no place in scholarship.


Wouldn't that logic apply to all Mormon apologetics?

Anyway, we both agree that a 19th century author mimicking Early Modern English is the most plausible explanation. I would like to see Skousen-Carmack go deeper into showing how difficult or rare it would be for someone in 19th century to produce the Book of Mormon Early Modern English. At least that would be an answer to a critic who refuses to acknowledge the possibility at all. Recognizing that is like a .0001 probability to occur vs a .00000000000001 probability or something like that, makes a difference.
Sharing a view of non-historical/metaphorical "New Mormonism" on my blog http://www.churchistrue.com/
_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

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churchistrue wrote:Wouldn't that logic apply to all Mormon apologetics?


No, for example efforts to connect NiH to Nahom do not have to depend on a divine direction from God since it is possible that someone from Jerusalem circa 600 BC could have made that journey. Anything Mormon that ties to the Bible could also be explained without invoking a divine interpretation. Maybe J.S. actually did translate Egyptian and got some of it right. Now if you meant to say "would that apply to all apologist" you may have a point.
churchistrue wrote:Anyway, we both agree that a 19th century author mimicking Early Modern English is the most plausible explanation.

I see it as the only explanation, not just the most plausible. Additional there is no way for Skousen to eliminate it as an explanation.
churchistrue wrote: I would like to see Skousen-Carmack go deeper into showing how difficult or rare it would be for someone in 19th century to produce the Book of Mormon Early Modern English. At least that would be an answer to a critic who refuses to acknowledge the possibility at all. Recognizing that is like a .0001 probability to occur vs a .00000000000001 probability or something like that, makes a difference.


I simply do not care how well they might establish the improbability of it happening. The fact is it happened. Everything about Joseph Smith's life is improbable. And improbable stuff happens without God being involved.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_churchistrue
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Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2016

Post by _churchistrue »

Fence Sitter wrote:I simply do not care how well they might establish the improbability of it happening. The fact is it happened. Everything about Joseph Smith's life is improbable. And improbable stuff happens without God being involved.

That's fine. I care. Not that it would be compelling for me but just to evaluate how compelling the evidence should be. Mopologetics is important to me, and it's nice to understand what the strong points are and what the weak points are. For example, the Nahom convergence. It's nice to understand whether this is a huge plus for Book of Mormon historiticity, a HUGE HUGE HUGE plus, or just a kinda nice to have plus.
Sharing a view of non-historical/metaphorical "New Mormonism" on my blog http://www.churchistrue.com/
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