The First Plastic First Family

[_Jersey Girl]

You'll be happy to hear that I've compiled a type of catalogue of yourmisogynistcomments about Melania Trump. Behold your handiwork, Kevin.

Your premise:

Comparing Michelle to a Gorilla is hardly the same thing as criticizing Melania for her behavior and choices.

Here's yourirrational comments regarding her "behavior and choices":

she is basically his trophy Stepford wife
She isn't particularly intelligent,
she isn't well spoken,
even worse she appears to be programmed.
She repeats whatever he tells her to say.
she is an embarrassment to women and poor example to our children.
She strikes me as someone who has really no brain and will do and say whatever is necessary to protect her 24k gilded lifestyle.

Whew! Nice work!

Your Pivot:

I'm just overwhelmed by the hypocrisy displayed by the Republicans who for 8 years attacked Michelle in the worst ways when she was an elegant, highly intelligent woman who was a great example for our children to look up to.

They did it, so can I:

quintessential bimbo
doesn't appear to have a single original thought of her own
struggled to form coherent sentences in English
looks like a scared puppy
married to a pig who probably mistreats her
But we're all supposed to ignore all of this because she looks hot in a bikini?
She is getting a pass because of her looks, period.
young trophy wife from another country
Everything about his wife is fake. She is not only fake on the outside, but there is no redeeming qualities from her as an individual.
She is not only the quintessential Stepford wife but a perfect exactly of what white privilege is all about.

Your defense:

And Misogyny "is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls." I voted for a woman for President and I haven't "devalued" Melania based on looks I'm pointing out hypocrisy that everyone is ignoring.

Your contradiction:

If you're unsure of yourself, even if you're already attractive, just dodge your education and focus on outer beauty so you can land a sugar daddy who was seven years into his first marriage on the day you were born

This is where you and I agree:

There have ALWAYS been high expectations of integrity from the First Ladies.

Yes, our First Ladies have been expected to work 4-8 years without salary. Agree.

Your defensive comments about me:

You sound exactly like Trump and these idiot Republicans who worship him because he is wealthy. All I did was post an image noting that this shocked me to see the difference.

No, Kevin. All you did wasn't post a before/after image noting that the difference shocked you. You posted the images, set about the business of disparaging a woman you don't know based on what you see in her appearance, then when you got blowback, you shifted course and decided you'd spin it as highlighting hypocrisy.

But what I'm more concerned about is the unprecedented example she sets for the children of America.

Me, too! For all I know, she's going to be the FLOTUS who successfully brings cyberbullying to the forefront and seeks ways to alleviate it or find a way to prevent it. I'm sure the young girl whose photo is being passed around on social media right now for the purpose of bullying and body shaming her will appreciate her efforts.

Let's just hope she doesn't see your shaming comments about her new First Lady who has promised to help her.

[_Kevin Graham]

CFR on accusing people of hypocrisy being a powerful tool for swaying minds. I mean, it's not like no one studies how to persuade people to change their minds.

I didn't say crap about merely "accusing" them. It is indisputable that it is hypocrisy on their part unless you want to get into "alternative facts." Whether it has an affect on changing people is a matter of opinion but in my experience it has that positive effect. Not only for me but for a number of people who, like me, have completely changed their views on matters of politics and religion. I used to be a devout apologist for both Mormonism and Right Wing politics. Some people here have been around long enough to remember those days. My views changed for a variety of reasons but not least of which was the fact that my beliefs were proved incorrect, but also realized I was being hypocritical in a number of ways. Further, I have had a number of arguments with family members who are as Right Wing as they come, and nothing stumps them more than pointing out their hypocrisy on matters such as these. I never will forget the look on my Mom's face when, after a red-faced rant about the criminal nature of illegal immigrants, I told her Melania Trump worked illegally as an immigrant. She initially accused me of spreading Liberal lies until her husband spoke up and said, "No, that's actually true." I just laughed at her and walked off. I'm not saying this will change her beliefs by any stretch. I doubt that could ever happen. But it is nice to know you're giving people pause and making them self-reflect. Baby steps.

And while you are bitching about me doing this, it sure beats anything you're doing.

Cute Jersey Girl, but all you did was prove your own irrational behavior. I'm not the one dissecting every sentence trying to offer witty comebacks. Until you can wrap your mind around what the word misogyny actually is, you're not getting any more responses from me. I do not like Melania Trump because she, more than anyone, normalizes Trump's behavior as an adulterer and sexual predator. I provided the evidence you requested and I don't expect you to respond to it. You rarely ever do when proven wrong.

[_Jersey Girl]

Cute Jersey Girl, but all you did was prove your own irrational behavior. I'm not the one dissecting every sentence trying to offer witty comebacks. Until you can wrap your mind around what the word misogyny actually is, you're not getting any more responses from me. I do not like Melania Trump because she, more than anyone, normalizes Trump's behavior as an adulterer and sexual predator. I provided the evidence you requested and I don't expect you to respond to it. You rarely ever do when proven wrong.

I dunno, call me crazy, but I think as a woman, I know full well what misogyny is. I encourage you to read the rest of the remarks made on this thread by other posters regarding your language on this thread. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll listen to them.

I provided the evidence you requested and I don't expect you to respond to it. You rarely ever do when proven wrong.

I'm willing to trade the term misogynist for sexist if you like. Will that work?

[_Res Ipsa]

CFR on accusing people of hypocrisy being a powerful tool for swaying minds. I mean, it's not like no one studies how to persuade people to change their minds.

I didn't say crap about merely "accusing" them. It is indisputable that it is hypocrisy on their part unless you want to get into "alternative facts." Whether it has an affect on changing people is a matter of opinion but in my experience it has that positive effect. Not only for me but for a number of people who, like me, have completely changed their views on matters of politics and religion. I used to be a devout apologist for both Mormonism and Right Wing politics. Some people here have been around long enough to remember those days. My views changed for a variety of reasons but not least of which was the fact that my beliefs were proved incorrect, but also realized I was being hypocritical in a number of ways. Further, I have had a number of arguments with family members who are as Right Wing as they come, and nothing stumps them more than pointing out their hypocrisy on matters such as these. I never will forget the look on my Mom's face when, after a red-faced rant about the criminal nature of illegal immigrants, I told her Melania Trump worked illegally as an immigrant. She initially accused me of spreading Liberal lies until her husband spoke up and said, "No, that's actually true." I just laughed at her and walked off. I'm not saying this will change her beliefs by any stretch. I doubt that could ever happen. But it is nice to know you're giving people pause and making them self-reflect. Baby steps.

And while you are bitching about me doing this, it sure beats anything you're doing.

Well, what you did here in this thread was certainly accusing them. And that's what I responded to.

Have you actually persuaded anyone to leave the church or change political parties by pointing out their hypocrisy to them? I mean, are you persuaded to stop stereotyping Ms. Trump as a "bimbo" and a "stepford wife" by me pointing out you're a complete hypocrite by claiming not to be a misogynist while acting like one? Of course not. You did just what every gamergater accused of misogyny does -- parses the dictionary definition, claims the woman they are attacking deserves it because of their conduct, etc. In other words, you simply invented excuses for your behavior. It's basic cognitive dissonance theory. The dissonance can be resolved by changing the behavior or by rationalizing away the disconnect between thought and behavior. Rather than listen when a woman like Jersey Girl talks to you, you just dismiss her. Call her irrational.

Your conduct in this thread is a good example of why pointing out someone's hypocrisy is an ineffective tool of persuasion.

Now, if you can put someone in the position of coming to the conclusion themselves that they are acting hypocritically without pointing it out to them, you might have an effective strategy. There's research that backs that up.

by the way, you don't know what I do. And whatever it is that I do, it has nothing to do with your actions on this thread. But nice diversionary attempt.

I provided the evidence you requested and I don't expect you to respond to it. You rarely ever do when proven wrong.

I'm willing to trade the term misogynist for sexist if you like. Will that work?

I think your choice of terms is reasonable. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/er ... 92cc89fa09

ETA: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/meg ... 4e37037cb5
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/straight-up- ... -comments/
http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womeninthewo ... -misogyny/
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.co ... is_a_bimbo

[_Dr. Shades]

You did just what every gamergater accused of misogyny does -- parses the dictionary definition, claims the woman they are attacking deserves it because of their conduct, etc.

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a "gamergater?" This is at least the second time you've used that word today.

[_Res Ipsa]

You did just what every gamergater accused of misogyny does -- parses the dictionary definition, claims the woman they are attacking deserves it because of their conduct, etc.

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a "gamergater?" This is at least the second time you've used that word today.

Sorry, Shades. This is a pretty good explanation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

Gamergaters attack women on the internet for the purpose of making them so afraid for their safety they abandon their internet presence. And sometimes withdraw from real life activities.

[_Jersey Girl]

...I'd just like to take a moment to tell you that a person's (male or female) cosmetic surgical outcome isn't your bloody business. Whatever attributes appeal to you personally, have not a thing to do with their cosmetic goals and it isn't your place to judge the outcome.

Ridiculous.

Why does a person have cosmetic surgery if not for the opinion of others? If you do it, you open yourself up to the judgment of others, based on the perceived goals of the procedure itself. That's human nature.

Why? I suppose for a multitude of reasons. Because they want to correct something that's bothered them all their lives, maybe something they were teased about when young? Because of medical reasons so they can breathe and speak? Because their eyelids weigh heavy on their eyes? Because their career and ability to generate income depend on their appearance? Because a woman has had a mastectomy and wants to reconstruction so she can wear clothes without special undergarments and feel more like herself again? Because they don't like what they see in the mirror and want to change it? Because they were burned and want a life without scars? Because the have a birth defect they want to get rid of?

Why do people lose weight?
Why do people cut and style their hair?
Why do men shave their faces?
Why do men and women wear makeup?
Why do we make the choices we do in clothing?
Why do women and men wear jewelry?

You act like the judgement of others regarding a person's appearance is a given when really, it's unhealthy.

[_Res Ipsa]

Anecdotally, my mom had a face lift and my sister a boob job. Both said they wanted to do it to because it would make them feel better about themselves. They didn't do it to impress anyone else. It's not a choice I would make, but I don't judge them for doing it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Cute Jersey Girl, but all you did was prove your own irrational behavior.

Did you think my lengthy post was cute? Wait until you see this one. You're gonna love it.

And Misogyny "is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls."

Is this where you got the first line of the definition from? Let's read the rest of it, okay? I'll emphasize in larger font just so we're clear what I want you to see because there's a whole pile of stuff you skipped over.

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, male privilege, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Your belittling of Melania Trump:

she is basically his trophy Stepford wife
She isn't particularly intelligent,
she isn't well spoken,
even worse she appears to be programmed.
She repeats whatever he tells her to say.
she is an embarrassment to women and poor example to our children.
She strikes me as someone who has really no brain and will do and say whatever is necessary to protect her 24k gilded lifestyle.
quintessential bimbo
doesn't appear to have a single original thought of her own
struggled to form coherent sentences in English
looks like a scared puppy
married to a pig who probably mistreats her
But we're all supposed to ignore all of this because she looks hot in a bikini?
She is getting a pass because of her looks, period.
young trophy wife from another country
Everything about his wife is fake. She is not only fake on the outside, but there is no redeeming qualities from her as an individual.
She is not only the quintessential Stepford wife but a perfect exactly of what white privilege is all about.

Irrationally yours,
Jersey Girl

[Guest]

I get the impression that she is not really a very happy woman and may, in some ways, be more victim than villain.

Oh look at you relying on your intuition instead of critical thinking and objectivity here. I just gotta ask one question. Did the Spirit tell you she's not very happy?

;-)

Because you have exactly no evidence with which to draw these conclusions except your imagination and bias against her husband.

This incident as noted by David Packman and others here and here is the strongest indication I have yet seen of that.

It seems highly likely that the reason she has expressed a desire to dedicate herself to combat bullying while FLOTUS is at least partially because she is a victim of bullying herself at the hands of her husband.

I think (no really I think) that the reason she's interested in fighting bullying is because, as she already SAID, one of her main focuses is on cyber bullying on social media. You know like Barron is autistic type bullying? She's approaching this as a mother, not a wife.

Yes, I think concern for possible bullying of her son is very plausible too, but considering the brief videos I linked to above, Trump's known propensity for bullying behavior, and how he treated his previous wives, I don't think it is much of a stretch to suspect that there is more to it than that.

She may deserve some blame for whatever unhappiness she is experiencing because of some bad choices she has made, but I can't help viewing her more as a victim of Trump than as being complicit in his villainy.

Again, you imagine she's unhappy. Based on what, Gunnar? Here you paint a picture of her as a helpless victim of Trump instead of a capable and independent woman, and what, she's stuck with him? She chained up or something? She's a millionaire in her own right for pete sakes.

Oh that poor woman!

She may not be the brightest or best educated First Lady we have ever had, but I think she may be more intelligent than her detractors are willing to give her credit for.

What? What do you base this on? How do you know what her level of intelligence is?

I have no way of knowing what her actual IQ is, but as you already said, she has some proven capabilities and has used them to become a millionaire in her own right. She also has managed to become fluent in 5 languages, so she is clearly not stupid. But she is clearly also strongly dominated by Donald J. Trump.

I want to add, though, that there are strong indications that she is a very good mother to her son, Barron, and he is probably very lucky to have her.