The Constitutional Crisis Thread

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Just x out of the pay thing. I can post it here. I got stuck in Internet hell for a bit and had to restart. :rolleyes:

There is no x for me to X out of. If you would post at least the interesting parts, I'd appreciate it.

I'll try. I just tried it again 3 times and no X for me now. WTH

I can't get into it now myself. No clue why.

It said that aides were working on this during the campaign. The immigration folks knew it was coming but didn't know what it said until it was signed. It was originally intended to be a 30 day ban, by the time it was signed it was 90 days. It also said (I know I'm repeating myself) that it was supposed to provide for safe spaces for Syrian refugees in Syria, but when it was signed that wasn't provided for in the final cy of the executive order.

It said something about how fast he was working on these executive order's intentionally (?) confusing Democrats.
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_Mayan Elephant
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Mayan Elephant »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Make sense?


Yep. If Trump's attorneys were at the hearing, Notice is official and final and binding at the moment the order was made. Correct? Whether it is a class or whether it is just the plaintiffs or whether the order is limited to citizens, no matter, orders were served when they were read in court or released to counsel.

If Trump's attorneys were not present at a hearing, they are idiots.

If it was a TRO, no hearing is hosted. Notice follows normal delivery requirements. But that would mean hours or minutes, not days.

Correct?
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

RI,

I'll try that tomorrow. I just managed to get into another article by using the X. I think what's going on there is that you can read it once, but if you try to open it again you get the subscribe message. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to frustrate anyone. I thought it would fit this thread and I waited until ME was out of the way before I posted.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Mayan Elephant wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Make sense?

Yep. If Trump's attorneys were at the hearing, Notice is official and final and binding at the moment the order was made. Correct? Whether it is a class or whether it is just the plaintiffs or whether the order is limited to citizens, no matter, orders were served when they were read in court or released to counsel.

If Trump's attorneys were not present at a hearing, they are idiots.

If it was a TRO, no hearing is hosted. Notice follows normal delivery requirements. But that would mean hours or minutes, not days.

Correct?

Pretty close. The Virginia order is a TRO. It could have been requested and issued without any notice to Trump or the other respondents. I just don't know if it was. If it was issued without notice, it is effective on a respondent only when that respondent gets actual notice of the order. I'm sure that there are lots of cases on what constitutes actual notice. But it doesn't require the attorneys to deliver a copy of the order.

Jersey Girl wrote:RI,

I'll try that tomorrow. I just managed to get into another article by using the X. I think what's going on there is that you can read it once, but if you try to open it again you get the subscribe message. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to frustrate anyone. I thought it would fit this thread and I waited until ME was out of the way before I posted.

No sweat. Thanks.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Can a state really sue the President?

RI, I couldn't access that darn WSJ article today. :evil:
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:Can a state really sue the President?

Absolutely, depending on what the suit is about.

Jersey Girl wrote:I can't get into it now myself. No clue why.

It said that aides were working on this during the campaign. The immigration folks knew it was coming but didn't know what it said until it was signed. It was originally intended to be a 30 day ban, by the time it was signed it was 90 days. It also said (I know I'm repeating myself) that it was supposed to provide for safe spaces for Syrian refugees in Syria, but when it was signed that wasn't provided for in the final cy of the executive order.

It said something about how fast he was working on these executive order's intentionally (?) confusing Democrats.

Thanks for the summary. It sounds like the haste and lack of vetting of these orders is confusing more than democrats. :wink:

Jersey Girl wrote:RI, I couldn't access that darn WSJ article today. :evil:

Aw, shoot. Thanks for trying.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:RI, I couldn't access that darn WSJ article today. :evil:


Aw, shoot. Thanks for trying.


It's always going to be the one that got away! I started copying it when I read it and thought that it seemed a tad long for a post, I should have done it anyway.

Darn. it.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Okay, the Aziz case (the one in Virginia) is now in the electronic system. No motion for contempt has been filed, but an amended habeas corpus petition has been filed. Here are the highlights:

As a result, upon information and belief, Department of Homeland Security officials have been effectuating the ban by bullying these arriving immigrants into “voluntarily” relinquishing their claims to lawful permanent residence into the United States.

On information and belief, respondents (through their agents and employees) lied to immigrants arriving after the Executive Order was signed, falsely telling them that if they did not sign a relinquishment of their legal rights, they would be formally ordered removed from the United States, which would bring legal consequences including a five-year bar for reentry to the United States. Because respondents knew that there was no valid, legal basis to remove these individuals from the United States, these were material, false representations.

Throughout this time, respondents denied arriving immigrants access to legal counsel.

On information and belief, these acts occurred nationwide, including but not limited to Washington-Dulles International Airport. During the first 24 to 48 hours that the ban was in place, Customs & Border Protection reports that it denied entry to at least 109 individuals. Many of these individuals were unlawfully compelled to “voluntarily” renounce their U.S. immigration status.

Tareq and Ammar signed these papers because agents or employees of respondents misrepresented that, if they failed to sign them, that they would be ineligible for entry to the United States for a period of at least five years. That representation was not true.

Tareq and Ammar are currently in Addis Ababa Bole International Airport, where they remain in limbo. They do not want to return to Yemen, which is currently in a state of civil
war. They are thus constructively in the custody of the United States. Tareq and Ammar wish to return to the United States, to reside with their father.

What happened to Tareq and Ammar is illustrative of what happened to dozens— if not hundreds—of LPRs and immigrant visa holders throughout the country on January 27 and 28, 2017. In these circumstances described above, any relinquishment of rights via a form I-407 was not voluntary, knowing, or freely given. Instead, it was the direct product of respondents’ agents’ misrepresentations as to what would occur if these individuals refused to sign. On information and belief, similarly-situated individuals who did not sign I-407s were ultimately admitted into the United States—thus demonstrating the falsity of the representations of respondents’ agents.

The complaint alleges that there is a class of people similarly situated to the Azises, and so it is being set up to proceed as a class action. The class would be former green card holders who signed forms relinquishing their green cards after being given false information by the CBP. Part of the remedy is reinstating the green cards and permitting return of the class members to the United States.

The government has not yet appeared, but I expect that to happen very soon. I also expect an early motion to certify the class. I would be surprised to see a contempt motion at this point, as the named plaintiffs have already been sent back, so getting them legal representation at the airport can't help them. Contempt motions may come after discovery into how many people were held, how many people were deported after notice of the TRO, how many people were denied access to counsel after the TRO, etc.

No hearings were scheduled.

The Attorney General of Washington announced today that the State would sue to challenge the legality of the executive order. I checked the system, and it apparently hasn't been filed yet.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Never say die! Here is at least part of the WSJ article.

http://nation.foxnews.com/2017/01/30/Washington ... -ban-quiet


Many U.S. immigration officials didn’t see the order until after it was signed; confusion at the airports

By Peter Nicholas, Damian Paletta and Devlin Barrett, The Wall Street Journal
 
Inside President Donald Trump’s political team, the travel ban was something of a secret.
Even before Mr. Trump won the election, aides were working up a plan to make good on a campaign pledge to keep potential terrorists from slipping into the U.S.

They kept the circle tight as the work stretched from the campaign to the transition and then the White House. If word seeped out, they said, terrorists would enter the country before the new barriers were in place. There was another benefit of staying mum: It would keep opponents guessing about precisely what the incoming president had in mind.

On Friday, Mr. Trump unveiled the final product: an executive order indefinitely barring Syrian refugees from entering the U.S. and restricting travel by people from seven Muslim-majority countries.

Mr. Trump’s action upended decades of U.S. immigration policy and capped a turbulent first week of his presidency. Demonstrators massed at the nation’s airports over the weekend. Travelers holding valid visas were held without warning at points of entry. Lawsuits followed, and by Saturday evening, hours after Mr. Trump told reporters in the Oval Office that the program was “working out very nicely,” a federal judge in Brooklyn issued a stay, stopping the Trump administration from sending home the refugees and immigrants who had been detained.

Read the full story at The Wall Street Journal→
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

The acting AG has directed the justice department not to defend Trump's executive order on immigration and refugees. Given the lawsuits filed to date, that's serious stuff.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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