zerinus wrote:And if you decide that her 20 page essay is not worth reading let alone replying to, she will declare the winner by default! Nothing clever about that though.
zerinus wrote:I think that Jack is suffering from contradictions syndrome. She has to contradict everything that everybody says just for the sake of contradicting. If you say, “What a beautiful sunny day it is today!” she will insist that it is raining, and will write you a 20 page essay to prove to you that it is raining when in fact the sun is shining. And if you decide that her 20 page essay is not worth reading let alone replying to, she will declare the winner by default! Nothing clever about that though.
Whoa, rush me to the burn unit.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13
zerinus wrote:And if you decide that her 20 page essay is not worth reading let alone replying to, she will declare the winner by default! Nothing clever about that though.
This is where the irony reaches critical mass.
At least we have a predictable method for determining when in a thread Zerinus finally realizes he has no clue. When he starts calling names and feigning disinterest in a side topic HE STARTED, it's all over.
MsJack, thanks for the links! That conversation on Sic Et Non was pretty entertaining to read. I give you much credit for being that coherent so soon after childbirth.
I had never noticed Junia being called an apostle. This thread has been interesting. For me the point is not whether women are allowed to be church leaders but rather how benighted or enlightened Paul and the rest of the early Christians were for their time. They were clearly in many ways pretty benighted, but it's nice to think that it was uncontroversial to call an effective evangelist an apostle regardless of sex. I mean, given some of Paul's other statements (presuming the same Paul really expressed them all), I would think that the only way he could have let this remark slip without comment would be that to him and his audience alike it was completely banal. And even if this one word in Romans is somehow misleading after all, and Junia was really Junias or not really an apostle, the fact that for 1200 years people like John Chrysostom could accept a female apostle as the obvious reading indicates that the idea of a female apostle was definitely on the table all that time.
I'm perfectly prepared to call Paul flat wrong on some topics; he was a man of his time, to be sure. He's a giant, though, and I'd like to think as well of him as I can. For me it sheds a different light on his pronouncements against women speaking in church, if at the same time he could so casually concede his own proudest title of apostle to a woman. It would incline me to think that the odious silent-in-church thing might have been for Paul a mere policy against offending conservative public opinion, rather than something he thought was really important. He did also urge people not to eat meat that had been sacrificed to pagan gods, even though there was really nothing wrong with eating it, just because it might shake some people's faith to see a Christian apparently accepting a pagan ritual. Of course it's still pretty thick to stop Christian women from speaking in church just to placate potential male converts, but it's arguably better than doing so on actual principle.
Some really interesting stuff Ms. Jack from credible sources. You know, Zerinus never got back to me with an example of him discussing or debating something where his knowledge is on full display. His knowledge of course, is the scriptures, and he claims to be a scriptorian. His usual excuse is to not have enough in common to even attempt a debate. Well, Ms. Jack believes the Bible as does he and it looks like an opportunity to show off his vast knowledge of the scriptures, being a self-proclaimed scriptorian and all.
This is about all a person needed to read to gauge Z's level of Biblical training:
Zerinus wrote:From the article on CARM about Junia
Quoting CARM articles as an authoritative source about says all that needs to be said.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
