Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

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_Kishkumen
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Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Kishkumen »

Of all the historical sins of Mormonism, none weighs more heavily on Mormons than polygamy. And, really, that is as it should be. Whether by design or by accident, polygamy has bound together generations of Mormons through shared guilt. Joseph Smith was the Abuser-in-Chief, and he enlisted to his army of fellow abusers other Mormon men and women, who, sharing culpability through their participation in the system, bound themselves to Joseph all the more tightly. Having committed the sin/crime, they knew that their fortunes rose or fell with Joseph. Mormons have been hostage to this guilt ever since.

Consider this passage from an insightful opinion piece by Gloria Steinem and Lauren Wolfe, which appeared in the UK Guardian in February 2012:

For example, in both city streets and war zones, men are far more likely to rape in groups. They feel they must uphold the cult of masculinity in the eyes of other men. As one soldier in Democratic Republic of Congo reported to Swedish researchers: "You feel you have to do something bad. You mix it all: sabotage, women, stealing, rip the clothes off, killing." Military officers sometimes order men to rape as proof of loyalty and shared culpability. Many militiamen in the thick forests of Congo tell researchers that they rape even when they don't want to. The consequences of not committing sexualised violence, they say, would be a severe beating by their superiors. It is a chain of control, held together by steely links of pain.

Soldiers sometimes express regret and say they wouldn't have raped without group pressure, as some said after carrying out atrocities in Bosnia. Also, group hatred in war means humiliating enemies by raping "their" women, implanting sperm, taking over their means of reproduction, wiping out the enemy race or ethnicity. Cultures that put all "honour" in the purity of "their" women – and keep women weak – are actually setting them up as targets. An insistence on "purity" is just the other side of the coin of insisting on sexually servicing other men. In both cases, the body of a woman exists in the battlefield of male control.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sexual-violence-women-cult-masculinity

Polygamy takes the same kind of abuse, shaming, pain and exercise of control, and prolongs its diabolical process by years and even generations. One act of rape can be devastating and, in the longterm, horribly scarring. Imagine an act of group rape that consists of Joseph Smith's pressure on his followers to violate their consciences by entering into illegal "marriages" that violate the sanctity of their marital vows to their first spouse. Imagine the coercion of young girls who were told that their eternal salvation was at stake--that the eternal salvation of their family was at stake, if they did not cooperate with Smith's demands for marriage.

All of these things were psychologically and physically devastating, and they pulverized their victims slowly, year after year, generation after generation. And now, even today, the descendants of Joseph's victims feel compelled to sanctify Joseph's crimes, his acts of rape, perpetrated personally or through agents, that were dressed up in theological garb. And now is the time to free ourselves from this burden. We need no longer be held hostage by Joseph Smith's Game of Thrones, wherein people were promised godhood in exchange for perpetrating crimes against spouses and family members, and thereby reaped psychological devastation. There needs be no defense of Joseph's crimes. He sought to make his followers his fellow criminals, and for generations the scam has worked. Now that we know the crime, we can stop doing the time.
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_I have a question
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _I have a question »

What's jarring is that leaders like Oaks currently believe they are polygamists, albeit eternally rather than right now.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _sock puppet »

Kishkumen wrote:And now, even today, the descendants of Joseph's victims feel compelled to sanctify Joseph's crimes, his acts of rape, perpetrated personally or through agents, that were dressed up in theological garb.

There's the crux of his insidious crime, aka his religious genius.
_Nightlion
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Nightlion »

One incendiary load of crap heaped up to accelerate the slide into the infernal pit there Kish. There is a grain of truth in it about the atrocities of Mormon Polygamy. I admit Joseph did receive the 132 section of the Doctrine and Covenants. And that opened up a justification in the minds of many Mormon Leaders that polygamy was required. Problem was the Mormons were still under condemnation for not doing according to that which is written. Sexual predation was a fact in Nauvoo. A rape culture like that found out there in the world today is not to be compared to early Mormonism.

Joseph Smith was not a sexual predator. He did not lead a rape culture. He saw what was coming and chose to be assigned elsewhere. An orchestration of justification has been added to the fame and name of Joseph Smith. It will prove wrong.

Like all religious abominations it is the work of hypocrisy.
The Mormons were not equal to the revelations they were given.
Can we think of Father Abraham or Moses or even King David as sexual predators?

At the same time I admit Mormon Polygamy (Brighamite) was an abomination. And that because men took the honor unto themselves unabashedly without first qualifying as having received the grade of Eternal Life, of having ones calling and election made sure. Think about how improper it is to lightly assume the obligation of taking more than one wife before you have an assurance of eternal life. The polygamy cart was before the horse all along the way. For whatever the wisdom of it Joseph stepped aside and allowed the parade to march on. Justifying abomination on the virtue of one true prophet has led to sad consequences in lost faith and bitterness of soul. The cancer of that evil continues to grow.

Somehow the overt wickedness of Warren Jeffs has possessed the consciousness of Joseph Smith in the minds of many today. Like that recent book that put a Warren Jeffs look alike 1800s daguerreotype on the cover of a book about images of Joseph Smith. No conspiracy that!

Kish, I will always expect better of you than this sizzling bomb you have lit.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Kishkumen »

Nightlion wrote:Kish, I will always expect better of you than this sizzling bomb you have lit.


It looks like you are having a difficult time disagreeing with me, Nightlion. You concede so many things there. I recommend that we all find clarity by acknowledging the crimes and moving forward. I believe that sometimes progress does occur, and in regards to patriarchal abuse of women and children there has been progress. At the same time, my post was not intended to attack the religion of Mormonism or any of your particular teachings. I am not advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But, let's face it, polygamy was steaming pool of dirty bathwater. It is necessary to own it, admit it, and do our best to move forward.

What we should not do, however, is excuse it or try to explain it away. Most importantly, we should never embrace it. Was Joseph Smith a religious genius? Yes. Was he responsible for establishing a religiously sanctioned rape culture? Yes. Is Mormonism invalidated because Joseph Smith foisted polygamy on his followers? No. That said, a stain remains, and it must be removed. Only by acknowledging that polygamy was wrong and by refusing to celebrate it, only by repairing the damage done to Mormon society by excising the coercive elements of Mormon priesthood practice can we start to free ourselves from the abuser.
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_Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Fiannan »

Guilt is stupid. People who are consumed by guilt are weaker than those who are not.
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Chap »

Fiannan wrote:Guilt is stupid. People who are consumed by guilt are weaker than those who are not.


And your point in relation to the opening post is what, exactly?
Zadok:
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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Fiannan »

Chap wrote:
Fiannan wrote:Guilt is stupid. People who are consumed by guilt are weaker than those who are not.


And your point in relation to the opening post is what, exactly?


I share no collective guilt for anything, much less what the opening post says about Mormon guilt over polygamy.
_Nightlion
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Nightlion »

Kishkumen wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Kish, I will always expect better of you than this sizzling bomb you have lit.


It looks like you are having a difficult time disagreeing with me, Nightlion. You concede so many things there. I recommend that we all find clarity by acknowledging the crimes and moving forward.


What sort of progress do you envision? The complete secularization of Mormon Culture? A form of godlessness?

I blame Trump and Jeffs. Trump for creating the present climate of holier than thouism amongst craven which-ever-way-the-wind-blows writers earnest to please today's pussy hatters.
And Jeffs for how his pall is manipulated to lord over on Joseph Smith.

The monster you imagine Joseph having become would not have laid down his life for his friends. And that after having proved them willing for him to do just that. And more especially knowing that he was betrayed by Brigham, Parley and Cowdery..... and who knows who that were years going after polygamy without Joseph's blessing.

Actually Brigham Young on up to Lorenzo Snow finished the first secularization of the LDS Church. Making it the money grubbing sycophancy it is today. Zion is hid still in the wilderness of LDS obscurity. I hope to call it forth.

Polygamy is a reality of Eternal Life. The mere scent of it made men mad at first wiff. You cannot get around that in Mormonism.
Women are saved in childbearing. Men on the other hand must have their seed sanctified and even after that be proven at all hazards to endure unto their calling and election made sure, whereby they are given Eternal Life. Women need not be given the promise of Eternal Life. It is a priesthood only burden. Women are given to and sealed to those who have Eternal Life. Do you Mormons really imagine that Eve brought forth alone the billions and billions who have come to this earth?

That will be an affront to equal rights for women. Tuff cookies.

The entire affair was prophesied by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


There is first a son of perdition. Then the lying wonders of Satan, (our present age) followed closely by THAT WICKED whom the Lord shall consume at his coming.
The green above is about Lorenzo Snow. He was this dispensation's Son of Perdition. You have to be truly wrought upon by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost before you can qualify for son of perdition status. He was the champion of: "As men are, God once was, and as God is, man may become". He also took up his residence in the Salt Lake Temple after it was complete showing himself thereby to be God. And it was his craft that set the LDS Church on the present money quest. And it was he who vaunted up himself and all of Mormonism above God. This is the strong delusion that was to be believed, as predicted by Paul.

2 Nephi 26
31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.


The chapter in Thessalonians also mentions the 'lying wonders of Satan' which is our present world filled with electrical devices. Satan is the principality of the air...or lightning....or electricity.
The man who was given to prove electricity could be conducted was a stone witch of legendary debauchery, Ben Franklin.

I mention all this to show why it was that Joseph stepped off and let the rest of the world have it their way. Polygamy was never taken to heart by Joseph Smith. I am with the Church of Christ on this bit. He was prophet enough to know what was coming and could do no more than allow it as Zion failed of the first people of the Restoration. Because they believed themselves already righteous and the best of the best just stepping into Mormonism and never repenting as becometh true saints. Hence no Zion or the power thereof.

Interesting to me are the two brothers Young out of Tennessee who were true saints that manifested great and gracious miracles in their ministry, whom the envy of uppity Mormons rejected and persecuted. Hyrum Smith just barely sanctioned them at the last. Joseph was not the only witness against the apostasy among early Mormons.

Sorry: I Grindaeleth :eek:
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_grindael
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _grindael »

Sorry: I Grindaeleth


Unfortunately, what you do is nothing like what I do. I deal in historical facts and common sense conclusions, you deal in self promoting jargon that has nothing to do with actual history. And your application of the verses in Thessalonians to Mormonism is a great exercise in self delusion. It all began with Smith, all of it. He was digging for buried treasure since he was a wee lad. He included his "slippery treasures" shtick in the Book of Mormon. He wanted to sell the Book of Mormon to make money. He even had a "revelation" that there was buried treasure in a house in Salem, Mass. which he and others went to (to support his second expedition to "redeem" Zion) but found ... nada. Of course his prophesied redemption date failed. Everything he did in relation to "Zion" failed. But that didn't stop his greed. He wanted a huge salary, which was voted down, so he instituted mandatory "tithing". Then there was the failed "Anti-Bank" which he prophesied would swallow up all other financial institutions. But it was rife with fraud and that failed too. He was paranoid of Sidney Rigdon being in charge of the Post Office because he felt people were stealing HIS MONEY. He even wrote to his brother in 1838 and said there was buried treasure in Far West just waiting for him to find. (They never did). His megalomania continued on to Nauvoo, where he mandated that his delusional followers build him a huge hotel, a house and a temple. There, he felt his theocratic choke hold on the city could get him anything, and he started damned married women in earnest (not just the occasional one). When he got caught doing that because his close associates weren't as careful as he was, he came up with a "revelation" to marry "virgins". But because of good, honest people, he was exposed and then was forced to answer for his crimes. He didn't give his life for his friends, he was fully expecting to survive Carthage. But he didn't. Unlike the stories in the Bible and Book of Mormon where angels came and released some from prisons, Jo was left to rot in one until they bribed the guards and died in another.

And what is most delicious, is that he continues to inspire wackos like you to pick up those broken pieces, declare themselves "prophets" and get in line to fail some more. It really is a sick cycle carousel, and you've been going round and round on it for years with nothing to show for it but more and more delusional rantings. Jo is toxic, but that won't stop people like you from propping him up at every turn to try and self promote yourself on his infamy.

I mention all this to show why it was that Joseph stepped off and let the rest of the world have it their way. Polygamy was never taken to heart by Joseph Smith. I am with the Church of Christ on this bit. He was prophet enough to know what was coming and could do no more than allow it as Zion failed of the first people of the Restoration. Because they believed themselves already righteous and the best of the best just stepping into Mormonism and never repenting as becometh true saints. Hence no Zion or the power thereof.


Pure, delusional BS.
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