The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

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_spotlight
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _spotlight »

zerinus wrote:
spotlight wrote:At the very least if we were to accept the existence of a god we should be open as well to the existence of the adversary of god and then the explanation can be the adversary did it. So god did it is not the only option by default.
If you cannot "believe" the authorship claims of the Book of Mormon, you have that right. What you don't have the right to do is to falsely claim to have an alternative explanation, when you don't. That has been the story of the "critics" so far.

I do have an alternate explanation. Joe did it will suffice. The only one that finds that explanation unreasonable are a group of TBMs that lack thinking skills. Why did Joe try to convince a mark that he had the ability to find hidden treasure with the very rock he supposedly used to translate the Book of Mormon? Why did he pretend he could read a closed book on a table with it in an attempt to persuade his mark of his powers? How can you be this naïve?

spotlight wrote:Someone online once remarked to me that the first order of business in dealing with Mormons is teaching them how to think. He was right. The conversion process teaches people to think incorrectly after which they are trapped in a box, the key to which lies outside the box.

Z wrote:Too bad it always seem to the the other way round.

Evidence? Thought so. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Hitchens paraphrase
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Lemmie
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _Lemmie »

zerinus wrote:
Exiled wrote:No. You have it wrong and this goes back to the original question ... why are you posting here? ...
None of your business why I post here. I post where I like. Go and and find something else to do with your time, and mind your own business.

Exiled, be proud. When zeri resorts to ad hom attacks, you know you have caught him in an illogical position. :biggrin:
_mentalgymnast
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

spotlight wrote:Fine but don't pretend that our starting points are somehow equally valid. Yours is indeed "less than" in this conversation.


I think this pretty much nails it. That is, the reason there is and will continue to be a roadblock to conversation as we reach the fork in the road of "faith" vs. unbelief in a creator/God.

And yes, I am well aware of the associated forks in the road that can lead us towards the "spaghetti monster" and his imaginary friends. :smile: I have my reasons for believing in the Judeo-Christian God over the flying spaghetti monster, et al., but that's another discussion for another day. :wink:

Regards,
MG
_zerinus
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _zerinus »

spotlight wrote:I do have an alternate explanation.
Sadly, you don't.

Joe did it will suffice.
Wrong! Listen to Elder Calister's BYU talk again to find out why.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:Yes, irrelevant.


So you say. I don't think it is.

Lemmie wrote:Let's stick with the OP topic,[dammit], and the first questions YOU asked: Man-made or God-given?


Are you a control freak? :wink: Sorry, I had to plug in that extra word. I'll take it out if you want. :smile:

What substantial argument does Brother Callister put forward as "evidence" for concluding the Book of Mormon can only be God-Given?


Refer to my answer to IHAQ.

Why do you see Jacob 5 as being irrelevant to this discussion?

Regards,
MG
_huckelberry
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _huckelberry »

mentalgymnast wrote:WHERE DID JOSEPH GET THE DOCTRINE?

Not to say that you're going to agree with him...but there it is. You read the talk, I assume?

Now, back to Jacob 5 and some of the stuff I was running by you? Any thoughts?

Irrelevant?

Regards,
MG

It having been a very long time, I decided to reread Jacob 5. A misfortune. The writing is truly bad. An editor could be requested but may well wish to avoid the task

There are several New Testament parables about vineyards which are echoed here. Couple from Jesus and one from Paul in Romans. These seem to have been chopped up and mixed together with varying results repeated over and over. Compared to the originals the result is blurred and boring, reduced to commonality. I find it difficult to read this and not think of a young man pleased with his imagination being able to fill in a bunch of detail into those bare bone stories in the New Testament.

Reading this reminded me of the discipline some monks have engaged in of whipping their own back with a knotted whip.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _Dr Exiled »

zerinus wrote:
Exiled wrote:No. You have it wrong and this goes back to the original question ... why are you posting here? ...
None of your business why I post here. I post where I like. Go and and find something else to do with your time, and mind your own business.


So I guess you are here to cause drama?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_zerinus
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _zerinus »

Exiled wrote:So I guess you are here to cause drama?
I am here to discuss the gospel with whoever is interested, which obviously does not include you.
_Chap
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _Chap »

mentalgymnast wrote:Why do you see Jacob 5 as being irrelevant to this discussion?


Because it appears to be a tedious elaboration of the parable of the olive tree in Romans 11 by some hick sermoniser who thinks that the opposite of a wild olive tree is (for goodness' sake!!) 'a tame olive tree'.

Romans 11 (KJV)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Lemmie
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _Lemmie »

mentalgymnast wrote:
spotlight wrote:Fine but don't pretend that our starting points are somehow equally valid. Yours is indeed "less than" in this conversation.


I think this pretty much nails it. That is, the reason there is and will continue to be a roadblock to conversation as we reach the fork in the road of "faith" vs. unbelief in a creator/God.

Except that's not what spotlight was talking about, is it? Here is the context:
mentalgymnast wrote:We're not starting on the same page.
spotlight wrote:Correct again. You are on the page of unwarranted starting presumptions and I am on the page of what does the evidence tell us, what does the evidence eliminate as a possibility.

So spotlight was referring to mentalgymnast starting with presumptions and himself starting with evidence. mentalgymnast disingenuously used his words to mean something he didn't mean in context.
Signs of intellectual dishonesty:

8. When addressing an argument, do not misrepresent it. A common tactic of the intellectually dishonest is to portray their opponent’s argument in straw man terms. In politics, this is called spin. Typically, such tactics eschew quoting the person in context, but instead rely heavily on out-of-context quotes, paraphrasing and impression. When addressing an argument, one should shows signs of having made a serious effort to first understand the argument and then accurately represent it in its strongest form.
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