The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_mentalgymnast]

...[MG has refused] to respond to ihaq's request to prove the Book of Mormon is god-given.

Asking others to go read doesn't count.

We are discussing Elder Callister's talk. I referred you/IHAQ back to his talk. That counts.

I asked you earlier whether or not you consider yourself to be a "control freak". That you would dictate to me...on a thread that I started...what I can say or not say is well...

Freaky.

I've spent a good deal of time on this thread today. I haven't been feeling well. I think it's time for me to put this thread to bed...as far as my participation goes...and put myself to bed. I kinda feel like crap.

Adieu,
MG

[_honorentheos]

The two links I provided, however, give some credence to the idea that Jacob 5 isn't anachronistic.

Because they use the text of Jacob 5 to describe what ancients of the time and place knew about olive cultivation?

(facepalm) Come on, man. You have to see how silly that is.

[_mentalgymnast]

The two links I provided, however, give some credence to the idea that Jacob 5 isn't anachronistic.

Because they use the text of Jacob 5 to describe what ancients of the time and place knew about olive cultivation?

(facepalm) Come on, man. You have to see how silly that is.

Hey honor, I really do need to wrap up my participation on this thread. I'm actually feeling like crap and I have to get up and go to work early tomorrow morning. I'm going to have to leave the thread with 'what I've said', and leave it at that. I did find this:

http://www.livescience.com/26887-olive- ... igins.html

Puts cultivation a ways back in history. I'll let you and others debate further on the topic.

Time for a break. I enjoyed the back and forth. Off to bed.

Thanks,
MG

[Guest]

Cultivation isn't in dispute. The use of grafting for a specific purpose other than increased production like the purpose of the master of the vineyard in Jacob 5 is being called into question.

ETA: It's been a while since the last time I discussed this. So to be fair I googled out to see if there were any scholarly papers on the history of grafting and found this for you to consider:
https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/janick-papers/c09.pdf

I hadn't read this source before, but it includes a section on grafting in the Bible and the question of if it is evidenced through this source. That is informative for a couple of reasons. First, it examines the horticultural references in it that may or may not indicate grafting had made it's way to the ancient Israelites. Second, it alludes to the fact the use of grafting by the Semitic peoples can't be independently confirmed from that time period prior to Hellenization.

Here's the relevent text for consideration which highlights how indisputable and evidence the practice is with the Greeks and Romans from whom it proliferated out in the 5th century BCE which is too late for the Brass Plates:

B. Biblical and Talmudic Sources
The Hebrew Bible, one of the most important of ancient documents, is
composed of numerous books written over 1,000 year period (ca. 1400–
400 BCE), including law, prophecy, poetry and parables, many of which
relate to plants and agriculture. Grafting is not specifically mentioned,
but many references appear to suggest that it was practiced. The several
biblical texts that allude to grafting concern the grapevine as a parable
and refer to reversion from cultivated to wild types: ‘‘And I planted you
‘Sorek’, all true seed, and how did you revert into a wild, alien vine’’
(Jeremiah 2:21). This could be construed as an undesired mutation that
appeared in the grapevine; more likely it can be understood as an
outgrowth of the stock on which the grape was grafted. A similar text is
from Isaiah 5: 1–2: ‘‘My beloved had a vineyard in a very fruitful hill. He
digget it and cleared it of stones, and planted it with choice vines; he
built a watchtowere in the midst of it, and hewed out a wine vat in it;
and he looked for it to yield grapes, but it yielded wild grapes.’’

The book of Leviticus 19:19, dated to about 1400 BCE, states: ‘‘Thou
shalt not sow thy field with two kinds of seed.’’ This is the basic
admonition against mixing seeds of different kinds or sowing them in
close proximity, which was discussed in detail in the Talmudic tractate
Kilayim of the Mishna (commentaries on biblical law composed in the
third century CE.) Although the Mishna explicitly states (Kilayim 1:7) ‘‘It
is unlawful to graft tree on tree, vegetable on vegetable, tree on vegetable
or vegetable on tree’’ [if they belong to a different species], it is
questionable whether grafting was originally included in the prohibition
of mixing mentioned in Leviticus. The art of grafting may have not yet
been practiced in ancient biblical times.

Greek and Roman sources (see Section II.C,D) indicate that grafting
was well known and widely practiced the Mediterranean region by the
fifth century BCE and during the Talmudic–Hellenistic times, when the
Mishna was composed. In the Mishna, grafting and layering of
grapevines appear as a common practice (Tractate Orla’ 1:5) and
planting, layering, and grafting are often described together as regular
methods of fruit tree propagation (Tractate Sheviith’ 2:6; Sota 8:2).
One paragraph of the Mishna (Kilayim 1:4) lists several fruit tree
stock/scion combinations, mostly from the Rosaceae: ‘‘And in trees:
grafting pear with krustomal [a kind of pear], or quince with Crataegus
is permissible. However, grafting of apple with wild pear, peach with
almond or Ziziphus vulgaris with Ziziphus spina-Cristi, in spite of
their similarity, is forbidden’’ [translated from Feliks (1967)].

In several Talmudic parables, marriage is compared to grafting; thus we find that marriage of a scholar into a noble family is to be praised, comparable to a graft between high-quality grape cultivars; whereas marriage of a scholar into a family of illiterates is as unacceptable as a graft between quality grapes and wild grapes (Talmud Bavli Pesachim 49a). However, according to Talmudic sources (Yerushalmi Kilayim 1:7), the verse ‘‘Your sons like olive seedlings surrounding your table’’ (Psalms 128:3) is interpreted ‘‘Just like olive trees, which are never grafted, so your offspring will be flawless.’’

That interpretation of Psalms 128:3 as refering to the potential for grafting as a technology but not applied to olives is interesting if accurate.

[_Mittens]

Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

1 Nephi 13:
41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

"God himself was
once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder
heavens. That is the great secret... …I am going to tell you how God came to be
God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will
refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the
first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and
to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to
know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods
yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done
before you... (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol.
6, 305-307,)"

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
The King Follett Sermon
By Joseph Smith, Jr.(1805–1844)

Meaning of the Word Create
You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, “Doesn’t the Bible say he created the world?” And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

[_Lemmie]

but it doesn't negate the fact that Jacob 5 is THERE and from what I've been able to see/read along the way, it seems as though it wasn't simply 'whipped up' on the fly while Joseph had his head in a hat.

Can't let this go by, because honorentheos has been putting some epic posts up, but your contribution to the debate is to imply a statement to honorentheos that honorentheos DID NOT SAY. face palm is right. You're the poster boy for intellectual dishonesty.

[_SteelHead]

There was essentially 7 years between when angel Moroni first reportedly visited Joseph Smith, and when the Book of Mormon was finished. Lots of time to produce Jacob 5 and everything else, sans whipping things up via magical hat.

[_Lemmie]

That you would dictate to me...on a thread that I started...what I can say or not say is well...

More intellectual dishonesty. I never told you what you could say or not say. Please do not misquote me. That's 4 different posters, in this thread alone, whom you have implied said something they didn't say. Learn how to have an honest discussion, mentalgymnast.

Signs of intellectual dishonesty...
A common tactic of the intellectually dishonest is to... eschew quoting the person in context, but instead rely heavily on out-of-context quotes, paraphrasing and impression. When addressing an argument, one should shows signs of having made a serious effort to first understand the argument and then accurately represent it in its strongest form.

Cultivation isn't in dispute. The use of grafting for a specific purpose other than increased production like the purpose of the master of the vineyard in Jacob 5 is being called into question.

ETA: It's been a while since the last time I discussed this. So to be fair I googled out to see if there were any scholarly papers on the history of grafting and found this for you to consider:
https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/janick-papers/c09.pdf

I hadn't read this source before, but it includes a section on grafting in the Bible and the question of if it is evidenced through this source. That is informative for a couple of reasons. First, it examines the horticultural references in it that may or may not indicate grafting had made it's way to the ancient Israelites. Second, it alludes to the fact the use of grafting by the Semitic peoples can't be independently confirmed from that time period prior to Hellenization.

Thanks, honorentheos, I find this topic fascinating, and very much in sync with Kishkumen's discussion over the summer re: how much of a product of his time and environment Joseph Smith's writings were. Thanks for the discourse tonight and for the links.

[_honorentheos]

Cultivation isn't in dispute. The use of grafting for a specific purpose other than increased production like the purpose of the master of the vineyard in Jacob 5 is being called into question.

ETA: It's been a while since the last time I discussed this. So to be fair I googled out to see if there were any scholarly papers on the history of grafting and found this for you to consider:
https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/janick-papers/c09.pdf

I hadn't read this source before, but it includes a section on grafting in the Bible and the question of if it is evidenced through this source. That is informative for a couple of reasons. First, it examines the horticultural references in it that may or may not indicate grafting had made it's way to the ancient Israelites. Second, it alludes to the fact the use of grafting by the Semitic peoples can't be independently confirmed from that time period prior to Hellenization.

Thanks, honorentheos, I find this topic fascinating, and very much in sync with Kishkumen's discussion over the summer re: how much of a product of his time and environment Joseph Smith's writings were. Thanks for the discourse tonight and for the links.

Glad to revisit it.

The first time it came up was on the old MAD board and someone had linked to a source similar to those MG shared. For whatever reason it struck me as odd that the source talked about how amazing Zeno's knowledge was and what it said about the ancient Israelite practices. But it seemed very uncharacteristic of apologists to not take even the slightest glimmer of a source and stretch it out to show how amazing the parallel ancient practices were to the Book of Mormon. Originally, I suspected there were minor but potentially meaningful differences that they didn't want to see brought up. So I went looking. And looked, and looked and looked. Then I asked what sources those who found Jacob 5 so amazing could point to. That turned out to be the most illuminating because it became clear they hadn't thought about this as a potential issue but couldn't discount it with actual source material. Everything I could find suggested olive grafting was a Greek practice that proliferated with their conquests and expansion though various forms of other olive cultivation practices may or may not have existed in various forms throughout the developing world. Not finding a compelling source for Jacob 5 in the past and having recently read The Botany of Desire which dwelt a lot on the apple in frontier America, I went to sources regarding apple cultivation to see how they aligned and it appeared familiarity with apple grafting could account for the supposed unique knowledge of Jacob 5.

So, every so often when it comes back up, which it seems to periodically for the same reasons MG brought it up, it's fun to revisit it and see if the apologists have finally found a scrap of something they can "tapir = horse" to address ancient Israeli olive grafting that actually aligns with the text of Jacob 5. Doesn't look promising, does it?

[_honorentheos]

but it doesn't negate the fact that Jacob 5 is THERE and from what I've been able to see/read along the way, it seems as though it wasn't simply 'whipped up' on the fly while Joseph had his head in a hat.

Can't let this go by, because honorentheos has been putting some epic posts up, but your contribution to the debate is to imply a statement to honorentheos that honorentheos DID NOT SAY. face palm is right. You're the poster boy for intellectual dishonesty.

To state my position on this since it applies to MG's OP, I don't believe most of the Book of Mormon was composed while Smith had his face in a hat. The vast majority of the testimonies of this appear to be from the period when the lost 116 pages were composed though Cowdery also describes it's use. Either way, it doesn't seem particularly necessary to accept that this was how the Book was actually written. It's only necessary to accept that Smith did this for audiences, and if most of the actual content produced this was is lost to us we have no idea of what quality it was. Maybe it was all, "Verily, Verily, thus saith I, Lehi,..."

Chronologically, Jacob 5 is one of the very last things written when Smith and Cowdery were finishing the production of the text. It would have been composed in the Whitmer house. If there is a small circle of obvious conspirators, one has to draw that circle around Smith, Cowdery and David Whitmer at a minimum. I don't see anything about Jacob 5 being particularly inventive and don't imagine it couldn't have been composed rather openly between Smith, Cowdery and without concern by the Whitmers that there was a lack of miracles going on.

To the other point, if we're going to share scriptures that appear complex to the casual observer, what do we make of these gems?

1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Omni, being commanded by my father, Jarom, that I should write somewhat upon these plates, to preserve our genealogy—

2 Wherefore, in my days, I would that ye should know that I fought much with the sword to preserve my people, the Nephites, from falling into the hands of their enemies, the Lamanites. But behold, I of myself am a wicked man, and I have not kept the statutes and the commandments of the Lord as I ought to have done.

3 And it came to pass that two hundred and seventy and six years had passed away, and we had many seasons of peace; and we had many seasons of serious war and bloodshed. Yea, and in fine, two hundred and eighty and two years had passed away, and I had kept these plates according to the commandments of my fathers; and I conferred them upon my son Amaron. And I make an end.

4 And now I, Amaron, write the things whatsoever I write, which are few, in the book of my father.

5 Behold, it came to pass that three hundred and twenty years had passed away, and the more wicked part of the Nephites were destroyed.

6 For the Lord would not suffer, after he had led them out of the land of Jerusalem and kept and preserved them from falling into the hands of their enemies, yea, he would not suffer that the words should not be verified, which he spake unto our fathers, saying that: Inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall not prosper in the land.

7 Wherefore, the Lord did visit them in great judgment; nevertheless, he did spare the righteous that they should not perish, but did deliver them out of the hands of their enemies.

8 And it came to pass that I did deliver the plates unto my brother Chemish.

9 Now I, Chemish, write what few things I write, in the same book with my brother; for behold, I saw the last which he wrote, that he wrote it with his own hand; and he wrote it in the day that he delivered them unto me. And after this manner we keep the records, for it is according to the commandments of our fathers. And I make an end.

10 Behold, I, Abinadom, am the son of Chemish. Behold, it came to pass that I saw much war and contention between my people, the Nephites, and the Lamanites; and I, with my own sword, have taken the lives of many of the Lamanites in the defence of my brethren.

11 And behold, the record of this people is engraven upon plates which is had by the kings, according to the generations; and I know of no revelation save that which has been written, neither prophecy; wherefore, that which is sufficient is written. And I make an end.

12 Behold, I am Amaleki, the son of Abinadom. Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat concerning Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness—

13 And it came to pass that he did according as the Lord had commanded him. And they departed out of the land into the wilderness, as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord; and they were led by many preachings and prophesyings. And they were admonished continually by the word of God; and they were led by the power of his arm, through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.

14 And they discovered a people, who were called the people of Zarahemla. Now, there was great rejoicing among the people of Zarahemla; and also Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews.

15 Behold, it came to pass that Mosiah discovered that the people of Zarahemla came out from Jerusalem at the time that Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive into Babylon.

16 And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.

17 And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them.

18 But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his language. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his fathers, according to his memory; and they are written, but not in these plates.

19 And it came to pass that the people of Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did unite together; and Mosiah was appointed to be their king.

20 And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.

21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

22 It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land northward.

23 Behold, I, Amaleki, was born in the days of Mosiah; and I have lived to see his death; and Benjamin, his son, reigneth in his stead.

24 And behold, I have seen, in the days of king Benjamin, a serious war and much bloodshed between the Nephites and the Lamanites. But behold, the Nephites did obtain much advantage over them; yea, insomuch that king Benjamin did drive them out of the land of Zarahemla.

25 And it came to pass that I began to be old; and, having no seed, and knowing king Benjamin to be a just man before the Lord, wherefore, I shall deliver up these plates unto him, exhorting all men to come unto God, the Holy One of Israel, and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and in the gift of speaking with tongues, and in the gift of interpreting languages, and in all things which are good; for there is nothing which is good save it comes from the Lord: and that which is evil cometh from the devil.

26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

27 And now I would speak somewhat concerning a certain number who went up into the wilderness to return to the land of Nephi; for there was a large number who were desirous to possess the land of their inheritance.

28 Wherefore, they went up into the wilderness. And their leader being a strong and mighty man, and a stiffnecked man, wherefore he caused a contention among them; and they were all slain, save fifty, in the wilderness, and they returned again to the land of Zarahemla.

29 And it came to pass that they also took others to a considerable number, and took their journey again into the wilderness.

30 And I, Amaleki, had a brother, who also went with them; and I have not since known concerning them. And I am about to lie down in my grave; and these plates are full. And I make an end of my speaking.

Someone tell me THAT doesn't read like someone trying to rush through some crap they realize they have to cover because the lost book of Lehi required it to bridge between Nephi and Benjamin/Mosiah and they just want to be done. Had Smith and Cowdery had a editor they had promised the text to, I suspect they'd have received Omni back with a lot of notes.