The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_mentalgymnast]

I know that I did mention, something to the effect, that I believe the possibility exists that there is a greater likelihood that agnostic/atheists may not find that lying is a sin in the sense that God is holding them accountable for telling the truth, etc. That they might find it easier to twist the truth and/or omit facts, etc....

I believe that it's easier for someone who doesn't think/believe that they are accountable to God for the things they say or do to 'make stuff up' and then have very little remorse or conscience for doing so....

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

You just finished arguing that God lied to Holland because the ends justified the means. Unbelievable, lol.

I as a matter of fact said that I believe God didn't lie to Elder Holland or his son. I'll leave it to you to go back and find where I said this.

Regards,
MG

[_Gadianton]

Holland is basically saying that god sometimes misleads us as an answer to prayer. Doesn't that bother you?

It depends.

(acknowledging god misleads us; even if he said, yes, it bother me, he acknowledges the misleading).

I have no expectation that God is a puppet master leading folks onto the right path 100% of the time.

I don't see it that way. I think that in certain situations/circumstances that God would prompt someone to do something knowing that once they do so they will immediately see that the alternate path is/was the correct way to go.

(God will lie and prompt the wrong path). lol.

Here's a question for MG: Suppose it's WW2 and you have a Jewish family hiding in the basement and a Nazi officer comes to your door looking, and you deny that anyone is there -- have you told a lie?

[_mentalgymnast]

Holland is basically saying that god sometimes misleads us as an answer to prayer. Doesn't that bother you?

MG: It depends.

Here's what I said in context:

It depends. But yes, strictly speaking, it would.

In the narrative Elder Holland is sharing the answer to take the 'short road' resulted in he and his son quickly finding that the 'wrong' road was not the one to be taken. As they took the other one...the longer one... it was 'confirmed' that that road was the right one. Intellectually and spiritually. It could be no other. If God had answered the prayer by initially prodding them to go down the road that went somewhere rather than nowhere, they may have had second thoughts about whether or not they were headed down the right road. They would have had only a spiritual feeling. As it turned out, they knew once they were on the right road that they were indeed not mistaken.

Mind and heart.

This might be analogous to God permitting us to go down the road of doubt and even despair...a dead end (in regards to having a testimony in the restoration)...with hopes that we'll turn around and get back to the road that leads to faith/testimony...the long road. It is very possible, however, that depending on the person and all of the other variables involved, God would spiritually confirm the 'right road' initially (some folks don't need/want both spiritual/intellectual confirmation). Other folks, for one reason or another, need (or are 'built') and/or will travel down the road that branches off into 'parts unknown' because they need (or are 'built') and/or have a natural desire to explore the alternatives...nooks and crannies... and nuts and bolts that make up/determine their faith/belief in God and Mormonism in particular.

It is a road fraught with hazards and bumps/ruts. Once it is found that there really isn't any farther to go on that road, however, it's a matter of either turning back and going back to the fork then going down the other road (knowing that the other didn't lead to faith/testimony)...or not. At that point as one is on the LONG road of faith they can then study by learning and also by faith.

I'm not sure, but I think that this...generally speaking...was where Elder Holland may have been heading with this story.

No where did I say that God was lying to Elder Holland or his son.

I do believe that the narrative demonstrates the fact that sometimes 'the end justifies the means.'

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Here's a question for MG: Suppose it's WW2 and you have a Jewish family hiding in the basement and a Nazi officer comes to your door looking, and you deny that anyone is there -- have you told a lie?

Well, golly gee, I haven't heard that example brought up before.

Have I told a lie...hmmm...

Yes.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I think the last few posts really don't belong on this thread.

Regards,
MG

[_Tator]

Only the last three.

[_Lemmie]

Only the last three.

[_Gadianton]

MG-- you are saying God intentionally misled Holland. That's lying.

If the Nazi officer comes to my door and asks me if anyone is hiding there and through verbal and non-verbal cues I give the officer the strong impression that no one is there and try another door, I'm still lying.

If you're already admitting we can lie for the greater good, it's really pointless to try to salvage a position where God deceiving Holland for the greater good is something other than lying.

[_mentalgymnast]

MG-- you are saying God intentionally misled Holland. That's lying.

Elder Holland wasn't mislead. His son asked which "road to take" and he received an answer. Elder Holland agreed with the inspiration his son received. By going down the "road to take" they were then...by default...put on the right road (as they came to the dead end on the other one) and they were able to get out of the desert in the later part of the day and arrive safely home.

What Elder Holland is saying, if I'm hearing him correctly, is that God DID tell them the "road to take" so that they would end up on the right road that then took them home. At that point they then knew...mind and heart...that they were on the "road to take".

I REALLY don't see why there is such a big commotion about this.

If you want to continue this discussion, it might be well to move the last six to ten posts, (or whatever the number is...) on this thread over to the other one where this topic is being discussed.

I think I've pretty much said all I have to say on the subject.

I think the scriptures are fairly explicit in telling us that God cannot lie. And he didn't in this instance.

Regards,
MG

[_Res Ipsa]

MG-- you are saying God intentionally misled Holland. That's lying.

Elder Holland wasn't mislead. His son asked which "road to take" and he received an answer. Elder Holland agreed with the inspiration his son received. By going down the "road to take" they were then...by default...put on the right road (as they came to the dead end on the other one) and they were able to get out of the desert in the later part of the day and arrive safely home.

What Elder Holland is saying, if I'm hearing him correctly, is that God DID tell them the "road to take" so that they would end up on the right road that then took them home. At that point they then knew...mind and heart...that they were on the "road to take".

I REALLY don't see why there is such a big commotion about this.

If you want to continue this discussion, it might be well to move the last six to ten posts, (or whatever the number is...) on this thread over to the other one where this topic is being discussed.

I think I've pretty much said all I have to say on the subject.

I think the scriptures are fairly explicit in telling us that God cannot lie. And he didn't in this instance.

Regards,
MG

That is the most ridiculous rationalization I've heard in ages. God had two choices. Tell them to go down a dead or tell them to go down the road that will lead them out of the desert. And God tells them which road leads out by sending them down the road that doesn't?



Change your nick to "pretzellogic"