Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

[_Kishkumen]

It might have been nothing more than a silly incident if both parties had equal power, if one of the parties hadn't intentionally broadcast his intentions to help to vulnerable populations and then taken advantage of that, if both people walked away with their jobs, if one party weren't telling lies to the public and church leaders, if one party weren't banned, if one party didn't use it to change the course of a movement, etc.

Don't make less of what JD did than it deserves. Very insulting. The sex part... meh. Not much there. The context was and is very serious. It's a dangerous situation all around.

I can see that it is very serious for you. It clearly is a big deal to you, and you feel like it is deeply important that you come revisit this with us repeatedly with the ostensible purpose of saving others from your experience. I'm sorry that I don't share your sense of the momentousness of it. But, honestly, I don't. It is not clear to me that you were in any way coerced to make out with John Dehlin.

[_Rosebud]

Your response is concerning Kish. I have little to say besides you must have experienced life from a very empowered place.

The sex is not the story here. There wasn't much of it. Laughable and very Mormon.

John Dehlin is dangerous, not because of sexual predation, but because of his use of sex with power and manipulation. Why would I be the only person he did this to? What do you think it's like to have a public figure using the Internet to intimidate, shame and control? What might that experience be like for someone? What if I am among the more resilient of those he targets? What about the others?

This is not a kind, good-hearted forgiving man we're talking about. If he had been, I would have been fine and this would have blown over without a problem. And this is not just a scorned woman placing blame. That is an unjust read.

Funny to me that men can't seem to see beyond the sex.

[_Kishkumen]

Oh... and the $$$$$ and legalities that became part of the mess... on several fronts... that's no small number. Mormons aren't the only ones who take these things seriously. Bad news.

But omg, I wish I could adequately share the response the never-Mos who know what happened in New Hampshire think of the whole incident. Maybe at some point I'll be able to get that across.... we'll see.

If there is one thing I am absolutely dead certain of, it is that there are many people who will happily agree with you about the whole thing. I encounter such people all the time. All of you seem to be decent enough people, but I just can't go there with you. At least, I have not been convinced by what I have read that this is the awful catastrophe it is made out to be in all of your posts. OK, cool. We differ.

This looks like a pretty common kind of mess in our bizarre world. People will find a way to walk into trouble, get tangled up in each other, savage each other, take advantage of each other. The outcome is sad. These days, however, we build amazing personal narratives out of these events and spend a lot of time rehearsing them to each other. In a way, the Dehlin problem is an interesting variation of the de-conversion narrative.

"I once believed that the Church was true, but then X happened and I saw what was really up. Now I am coming to this public forum to rehearse my important personal narrative and help save other people from experiencing what I experienced."

"I once believed in what John Dehlin was doing, but then he did X and I found out how crummy he really is. Now I am coming to this public forum to share my story of personal abuse to save others from being exploited by John Dehlin and other guys like him."

And, I know that these things are meaningful for the folks sharing them. I was certainly there with the LDS Church--all the anger and feelings of betrayal. How could people lie about Church history? How could they collect tithes when they knew it wasn't true?

But I have definitely reached a point at which I am struggling to see how, in the face of all the huge crap that is going down, John Dehlin's business practices on a little blog and a necking and petting story amount to very much at all. Most of the life on the planet is on the verge of collapse. Nuclear war could waste us all. Here people sit anxious about Jesus maybe being historical or not and creepy guys who fool around on their wives with talk of polygamy.

I definitely need to invest more time in my other hobbies.

No offense.

[_cwald]

This thread will not have run its course until Mayan Elephant and RockSlider start throwing down.

Right.

[_Kishkumen]

Your response is concerning Kish. I have little to say besides you must have experienced life from a very empowered place.

The sex is not the story here. There wasn't much of it. Laughable and very Mormon.

John Dehlin is dangerous, not because of sexual predation, but because of his use of sex with power and manipulation. Why would I be the only person he did this to? What do you think it's like to have a public figure using the Internet to intimidate, shame and control? What might that experience be like for someone? What if I am among the more resilient of those he targets? What about the others?

This is not a kind, good-hearted forgiving man we're talking about. If he had been, I would have been fine and this would have blown over without a problem. And this is not just a scorned woman placing blame. That is an unjust read.

Funny to me that men can't seem to see beyond the sex.

So, what were you manipulated to do, Rosebud?

What did he use the internet to do? Shut you down from outing his marital indiscretion or from questioning his ability to patch things up with the LDS Church? Yeah, pretty crappy.

And yet here I sit as one of many people who doesn't know you at all and is not trying to figure out who you are, despite the powerful intimidation of John Dehlin. Why? Because while most of us can feel sympathy as fellow travelers in a world of crap, we have too much on our own plates to keep track of your personal problems.

I get it. crap happens. Even to me, the person who by virtue of your assumptions about my identity can't possibly understand your personal drama.

What if I told you that I am a more than once victim of sexual harassment? Would that change your view?

Or am I just in denial? Am I just a person who can't understand for some reason? Is it my gender that's the problem? My ethnicity?

If I was sexually harassed, was it less harrowing for me because of my gender and ethnicity?

[_Lemmie]

That's a very interesting point. I've seen that in other religions other than Mormonism. If the desire becomes great enough, there is always the get-out-of-jail card of contrition and forgiveness.

Sure. But the polygamy fantasy coupled with the extreme demands for purity is an interesting tension/contradiction.

It's the Clean Flicks version of a torrid affair.

John Dehlin is dangerous, not because of sexual predation, but because of his use of sex with power and manipulation. Why would I be the only person he did this to? What do you think it's like to have a public figure using the Internet to intimidate, shame and control? What might that experience be like for someone?

You're right, it's a bad situation. You're not under his control anymore, but the way you tell your story sounds like you're not quite convinced of that.

Funny to me that men can't seem to see beyond the sex.

Rosebud, I have to say I am with Kishkumen on this (you know I'm female, right?). His take on your posts is very similar to mine. Maybe it's time to let go of this idea that men are one way and women are another.

[_Rosebud]

Because, Kish, it f'd up my life, my family and it was my money and my children's support I lost.

And because he brought the drama down -- not me. I could have done without it all and moved through my crises with relative ease if he hadn't been around to "help."

And he's still out "helping" and f'ing things up for a lot of other people in his pseudo-church.

Thank god, though, that I was able to figure out the real world (and real sex) outside of Mormonism eventually.

You're kind of a bastard to minimize my perspective this way, by the way. You have no idea. There was nothing "equal" about what happened.

But this is a message board record so I suppose that's to be expected. Could be much worse.

[_Kishkumen]

Because, Kish, it f'd up my life, my family and it was my money and my children's support I lost.

And because he brought the drama down -- not me. I could have done without it all and moved through my crises with relative ease if he hadn't been around to "help."

And he's still out "helping" and f'ing things up for a lot of other people in his pseudo-church.

Thank god, though, that I was able to figure out the real world (and real sex) outside of Mormonism eventually.

You're kind of a bastard to minimize my perspective this way, by the way. You have no idea. There was nothing "equal" about what happened.

But this is a message board record so I suppose that's to be expected. Could be much worse.

Yeah, I did not like being sexually assaulted very much. In fact, it was absolutely terrifying being touched non-consensually for months. It was very psychologically damaging, and who knows how my life might have gone differently had it not happened.

crap happens. Congratulations for surviving and getting away from a bad situation. Congratulations to both of us.

You're kind of a bitch to assume I can't understand you because I'm a guy. Screw you.

[_cwald]

Rosebud Wrote: Seriously, let the drama drop. Feeding it doesn't help anyone.

Yeah...I'm not sure you have anyone to blame but yourself for the direction of this thread.

... I looked up Kristy Money's Facebook thread and read Kate Kelly's idea to just boycott the Open Stories Foundation. I agree.

This is more what I was interested in discussing and perhaps the intent from the thread title. I'm not seeing ANYTHING related to KK on social media. Perhaps you might elaborate? Where did this come from Rosebud? Do you have a link?

[_consiglieri]

Back to Kristy Money, then.

I thought I had read a while back when this kerfuffle initially happened with Kate Kelly, that Kristy Money (with others) had written some sort of letter in support of John Dehlin contra Kate Kelly.

This is the first I had heard of Kristy Money taking issue with what is going on.

If this is correct, what has happened since then to change Ms. Money's tune?