Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

[_Dr. Shades]

But thank you, Dr. Shades, for allowing me to speak and to make this record. I can not fully explain how much it means.

You're very welcome. :-) I'm glad this board has been of some service.

[_Symmachus]

I wonder to what extent the Mormon Stories phenomenon is a variation on other "recovery" groups and programs. Define the disease, construct a narrative, offer a remedy, celebrate the cure.

The second sentence is the winning theory of every commercial, from dishwasher detergents to cars to IBS medications. In that sense, it's a brilliant one for Dehlin. "Mormon Stories: We'll Lead You, Guide You, and Walk Beside You, from Crisis to Cruise."

Your comments about the demographics of the faith crisis phenomenon are interesting. I also wonder whether navigating a faith crisis sometimes amounts to resolving tensions of class and status. Is there the same status cost to Mormonism across the board? By cost, I don't mean an inevitable loss of status, but rather the effort to hold together somewhat conflicting identities.

I think you've cracked it, Kish. The only thing I would add, if I understand you, is that I don't think the Church really makes an effort to hold together conflicting identities either. They welcome hangers-on to the middle class and those below, but they don't actually include them into the structure of the thing or cater to them. In other words, they welcome them the way that aristocrats welcome peasants.

It's always felt like a comfortably middle class, white collar religion to me growing up. That was the 90s and early 2000s, but things must have been different in the past because my family have never been white-collar types until my generation. Something attracted and kept them in. But I don't think Church tries at all to tackle class issues; certainly it was obvious to me as a kid that my dad never had any significant callings, whereas the bishops were all lawyers and bankers and professions I do not know but whose dwellings were much grander than ours all the same.

A history of Mormonism from a class perspective has yet to be written and probably won't be in the current "Mormon Studies" climate, but there is certainly something there. One way of looking at the Church is as the function of an aristocracy that was birthed by Joseph Smith. Polygamy is a sign of that aristocracy, and it was no accident in my view that Jeff Flake's and Mitt Romney's ancestors were polygamists—and probably John Dehlin's—but mine weren't. Theirs were settlers, farmers, and ranchers called to their places by the Church leadership that they were connected to by the chain-link of marriages. Mine were day laborers, coal miners, and rail workers: they worked either for the LDS polygamist farmers and ranchers or for the gentiles.

One thing that astonished me about some of these Mormon stories interviews were the occasional claims made that the Church was losing its best people (doctors, lawyers, and other upper middle class types) in its current apostasy. Well, I thought, the rest are the dregs? It's as self-congratulatory as the old FARMSians claiming they were doing it all for some old lady in Parowan; that was a hollow claim but at least it was a gesture. The sorts of "Mormon transitions" that Dehlin caters to don't even pretend to bother with the dregs.

[_Rosebud]

http://www.mormonstories.org/broken-ope ... gi-dehlin/

John,

Did you tell her about the recent events before you posted this? She says she wrote it at your request and that she planned on recording it last week. Does she know about your live answers to questions about the IRS, finances and board ethics today? (Assuming you take real questions.)

Does she have any idea of the context you promote her in?

She does not exist as part of your game or to cover for you. She deserves full disclosure of all factors before you use her to your benefit.

Who is this woman's friend? Please assure your audience that you're not exploiting her.

My god! At what point do you feel shame?

[_Kishkumen]

I think you've cracked it, Kish. The only thing I would add, if I understand you, is that I don't think the Church really makes an effort to hold together conflicting identities either. They welcome hangers-on to the middle class and those below, but they don't actually include them into the structure of the thing or cater to them. In other words, they welcome them the way that aristocrats welcome peasants.

It's always felt like a comfortably middle class, white collar religion to me growing up. That was the 90s and early 2000s, but things must have been different in the past because my family have never been white-collar types until my generation. Something attracted and kept them in. But I don't think Church tries at all to tackle class issues; certainly it was obvious to me as a kid that my dad never had any significant callings, whereas the bishops were all lawyers and bankers and professions I do not know but whose dwellings were much grander than ours all the same.

A history of Mormonism from a class perspective has yet to be written and probably won't be in the current "Mormon Studies" climate, but there is certainly something there. One way of looking at the Church is as the function of an aristocracy that was birthed by Joseph Smith. Polygamy is a sign of that aristocracy, and it was no accident in my view that Jeff Flake's and Mitt Romney's ancestors were polygamists—and probably John Dehlin's—but mine weren't. Theirs were settlers, farmers, and ranchers called to their places by the Church leadership that they were connected to by the chain-link of marriages. Mine were day laborers, coal miners, and rail workers: they worked either for the LDS polygamist farmers and ranchers or for the gentiles.

One thing that astonished me about some of these Mormon stories interviews were the occasional claims made that the Church was losing its best people (doctors, lawyers, and other upper middle class types) in its current apostasy. Well, I thought, the rest are the dregs? It's as self-congratulatory as the old FARMSians claiming they were doing it all for some old lady in Parowan; that was a hollow claim but at least it was a gesture. The sorts of "Mormon transitions" that Dehlin caters to don't even pretend to bother with the dregs.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith intended to install his family as the royalty of his group. And, the nepotism in the Mormon hierarchy, as well as the obsession with pedigrees, backs up the idea that there is a strong aristocratic streak in LDS culture. Ritually, this tendency was diluted through the filtering of polygamy and the endowment down into the larger body of the LDS Church. But priesthood hierarchy ensured that behind the ritual aristocracy, which was actually fairly porous and upwardly mobile, there would be a much narrower oligarchy. I would not disagree that many Mormon dissidents are, in a sense, frustrated would-be oligarchs. I am not saying this to denigrate them or question their other motives. If that is the system, then investment in it might legitimately include the desire to join the oligarchy. And those who are local leadership or have more contact with the oligarchy, are more likely to aspire to join the oligarchy. When that doesn't pan out, it can be a real source of disillusionment.

In this regard, I think, the FARMS crew was always right. The difference is that they were the willing upholders of the oligarchy, who were at the ready to cast down the dissidents and wannabes as intellectual Porter Rockwells.

[_cwald]

http://www.mormonstories.org/broken-open-by-margi-dehlin/

John,

Did you tell her about the recent events before you posted this? She says she wrote it at your request and that she planned on recording it last week. Does she know about your live answers to questions about the IRS, finances and board ethics today? (Assuming you take real questions.)

Does she have any idea of the context you promote her in?

She does not exist as part of your game or to cover for you. She deserves full disclosure of all factors before you use her to your benefit.

Who is this woman's friend? Please assure your audience that you're not exploiting her.

My god! At what point do you feel shame?

Rosebud, I don't think it is healthy for you to keep doing this. I wish you would take your own advice and leave all this behind...and stop commenting. It's okay to hurt and to be angry, but you may need to get help if you truly want to walk away from this dramatic experience in your life. Just my two cents.

[_Rosebud]

This is classic. My challenges and record aside intellectual commentary.

Where have all the popcorn eaters gone?

[_Rosebud]

http://www.mormonstories.org/broken-open-by-margi-dehlin/

John,

Did you tell her about the recent events before you posted this? She says she wrote it at your request and that she planned on recording it last week. Does she know about your live answers to questions about the IRS, finances and board ethics today? (Assuming you take real questions.)

Does she have any idea of the context you promote her in?

She does not exist as part of your game or to cover for you. She deserves full disclosure of all factors before you use her to your benefit.

Who is this woman's friend? Please assure your audience that you're not exploiting her.

My god! At what point do you feel shame?

Rosebud, I don't think it is healthy for you to keep doing this. I wish you would take your own advice and leave all this behind...and stop commenting. It's okay to hurt and to be angry, but you may need to get help if you truly want to walk away from this dramatic experience in your life. Just my two cents.

Cwald. I'm okay. I won't be doing this for long. It's not good for me in the long run. That said, I'm not a little girl. I make my own decisions and I have my own reasons. Please don't make the mistake of underestimating me.

Today I wrote something that summarizes how I feel about this. It was in response to Kendall Wilcox quoting Audrey Lord.

“I have come to believe over and over again that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood.”
– Audre Lorde

Me:

I have learned that many misunderstand and that whether or not I am understood is less important than whether or not I speak.

And I have learned that there are some who do, in fact, understand as well as that being understood by others is less important than being understood by the self.

------

Allow the process to play itself out. It's okay. I'm okay. If I need help, I will reach out. I've got this ;). I take care of myself and I have lots of people who really love me.

[_Rosebud]

(But thanks..... and I do appreciate those who aren't adding to the drama.... )

[_Madison54]

They are having a field day over at MAD about this latest Dehlin kerfunkle.

Humorously and ironically Calm/Nemesis keeps threatening to ban people from the thread whenever they compare the Dehlin's lack of financial transparency with the LDS church's lack of financial transparency. Classy Calm moderation. She keeps saying she's going to report posters for being off topic. Who is she reporting to? She is the moderator there.

Calm and Juliann are turning into jokes over there. Their "we're not the mods here" charade is ridiculous and anyone can see how fast they gang up and ban posters, get things posted in red (right in their posts but claim it's the "mods" not them). Even other faithful posters are questioning why these 2 get immediate action from mods when no one else can get mods to respond or even get ahold of them.

That thread that Calm started on Dehlin breaks board rules and doesn't even belong where she's posted it (but flippantly dares anyone to report it to the mods who objects). Yeah, report it to HER

That thread is a shameful character attack and it would have been locked in seconds if it was against anyone else or was posted by someone who doesn't moderate and control the comments by banning anyone who disagrees with Calm and Juliann.

[_Tator]

Where have all the popcorn eaters gone?

I suspect they have moved on from the drama and have healed one way or another. I couldn't agree more with cwald's post. Rosebud on this thread you are the drama and I question your response that you are okay.