Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

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_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:Well part of that was because modern apologetics where there's a presumption to scientific facts is relatively recent. Yes you have the start of such things at the time of Widstoe, Roberts and Talmage. But I think it was a minority. It's really not until the 1980's, relatively recently, that an apologetic informed primarily by science occurs. (Nibley's approach was largely the old structuralist project within which he was trained - so I don't count that) There's still a mix in apologetics. While I think apologetics often gets a bum rap, there's no doubt that there's also a lot of crap.


That sounds about right. But in Joseph Smith's day it was an utter heyday for Mormon claims regarding Smith's ability to translate and it went completely unchallenged. Egyptology was in its infancy. But things started to change towards the end of the century and it became readily apparent that the Explanations of the Facsimiles were amiss and clarification was certainly needed. The missing scroll theory essentially became the bedrock defense for the Mormons in not being able to supply qualified answers to why the Explanations were contrary to conventional Egyptology. Without the papyrus there would ever remain questions and mystery on how to tie the Facsimiles to the papyrus. Then, in 1967 everything changed when missing papyrus was discovered and returned to the church. Suddenly apologetics went into full swing and the missing papyrus theory had to be changed from, "We don't have the papyrus" to "We don't have all the papyrus. The ground was broken for a full spectrum of all kinds of wild and crazy ideas on how to defend the translations of Joseph Smith.
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:Widstoe, Roberts and Talmage.


Those men were intelligent and well informed. Most assuredly they had serious questions and reservations on how to interpret the obvious differences between the JosephSmithism Exlplanations of the Facsimiles and conventional Egyptology -- the standards had in the finest universities on the planet. The brethren certainly must have had questions brewing in their minds.

My question for you, Clark, is rather simple. Take into consideration everything you know about the saga of the Book of Abraham and suppose you could step into a time machine and go back to Nauvoo when the Times & Seasons first published the Book of Abraham. Suppose you could go back in time and meet Joseph Smith. What question(s) would you have for him regarding the Explanation of Fig. 2. in Facsimile No. 3?
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:This is true, but irrelevant to the subject at hand. Science can and does know things, plenty of things that religion has backed down and now accepted from science, even though religion had it originally (and incorrectly) from God, or so they claim. We actually do have enough science of Egyptology to correctly translate Joseph Smith's papyri he owned and claimed he translated. He didn't translate it right however. Sure there are things science doesn't know, but this is one that it does know. Joseph Smith translated the papyri wrong. You are just pretending to be thick in order not to have to deal with it. I KNOW that's what you do, because I was once in your mindset, and it's what we all did. You fool no one here, other than the man in the mirror.


Zerinus (Benjamin McGuire) refuses to admit that the personage Joseph Smith identified as a king (man) in Facsimile No. 3 is really a lady. He just can't get himself to admit that. It must really eat him up. It must also eat him up that the goddess Maat is really a lady, not a boy like Joseph Smith thought.

Silly, stupid Mormons.


Zerinus is certainly no Benjamin McGuire. I know Ben and his brains are vastly, light years ahead of and superior to the Z-man......
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
zerinus wrote:We already know that you think. The question is, Does anybody care? The answer is, Nobody does, except you.


Your statement is both illogical and flawed. You're speaking in absolutes making a blanket statement in which you're not entitled to make. It may be true that everyone here knows pretty much what I think. I'll grant you that. But to state that "nobody" cares is simply an overstatement and utterly unfair.

I trust there is somebody on this board and elsewhere that cares what I think and the argument I've made which crushes your apologetic argument. Your entire apologetic is flawed with illogical reasoning and appeals to unproven things that exist in your imagination.


You have mopped the floor with Zerinus Shulem. It's like killing a fly with a Sherman Tank....... :biggrin:
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Philo Sofee »

ClarkGoble wrote:


Just a tip, but your formatting is really hard to read. At a minimum I'd put space between paragraphs. For long text serif rather than sans-serif fonts is more readable.


Oh thank you Clark........ I shall see if I can get it fixed.....
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_tapirrider
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _tapirrider »

zerinus wrote:The Book of Mormon is true. You can go and kill yourself if you like; but it won't make that statement any less true.


Represented by placing the right thumb under the left ear, drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear and dropping the hand to the side.
_zerinus
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _zerinus »

tapirrider wrote:Represented by placing the right thumb under the left ear, drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear and dropping the hand to the side.

Image
_tapirrider
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _tapirrider »

zerinus wrote:
tapirrider wrote:Represented by placing the right thumb under the left ear, drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear and dropping the hand to the side.

Image


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzjLOMrcpH0
_LittleNipper
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _LittleNipper »

One thing must be made perfectly clear. Christianity is not on trial when it comes to Joseph Smith and his revelations regarding what is often labelled Mormonism. The reality is that TRUE Christianity has rested entirely on the Bible and the witness of Christ accepting and Bible believing Christians long before anyone ever heard of Joseph Smith. And quite frankly, the only defense of Mormonism lies entirely on the belief that ancient Christianity had entirely fallen into apostasy and out of being Christian. The proof of this is what Joseph Smith said was revealed to him by GOD.

Now, obviously ALL people calling themselves Christian are not necessary Christian, and the truth of this is plainly revealed in the Bible itself 2000 years ago. It is also true that many have used whatever means was at their disposal including "religion" to further their own agenda and not the Good News --- also revealed in the pages of the Bible!

So it doesn't matter to me if the Joseph Smith is good or bad, saint or demon possessed --- or if the works surrounding Smith are fact or fiction; because my faith is founded on the Lord Jesus Christ entirely regardless of anything Joseph Smith ever wrote, revealed or had to say. :ugeek:
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

LittleNipper wrote:So it doesn't matter to me if the Joseph Smith is good or bad, saint or demon possessed --- or if the works surrounding Smith are fact or fiction; because my faith is founded on the Lord Jesus Christ entirely regardless of anything Joseph Smith ever said. :ugeek:


I can appreciate your need and desires to have faith in your imaginary friend whom you believe is with you in everything you do. That's just fine if it suits you. Most people of every kind and stripe need something to sustain them through the wild and fascinating experience of life and that includes some form of religion and belief.

Having ditched both Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith, I've found true happiness and peace in myself and am literally the savior to myself. It's wonderful.

You do realize that Jesus Christ is dead and only your faith in him is all you have. He's not coming back. He's history. Same for Joseph Smith, he's history too.
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