Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[_zerinus]

There you go again, making assumptions about what I believe and in doing so come to your own conclusion. Look, I merely said that Christ is dead and he's not coming back -- to mean that biblical prophecy and LDS prophecy of his return in the clouds and to reign over the earth is never going to happen. He lived and he died. It's over. Two thousand years have passed and so will another two thousand and he still will have not returned. Christ is a false Messiah. He is a false god made up in the minds of those who worship him. He is your imagination.

Now to rebuke your argument. I may very well believe in an afterlife wherein we are beings and energy. I believe in science and quantum physics and am open to all kinds of things that we do not understand. I'm fully expecting that I will continue to live as a being of energy after I pass on this mortal existence. I will simply let that happen. Whatever happens will happen. It's the natural course for all of us, I'm no exception.

So your God is quantum physics, and you think that when you die you will continue your life in the hereafter as living and breathing quantum. Thanks for letting us know. It takes all kinds I suppose.

[_Shulem]

Indeed, and by making an open minded concession one is then able to gather the facts, analyze them, and make an intelligent determination. The problem with the LDS argument is they start out with the idea that the church is true no matter what and this kind of thinking will hinder their ability in fully perceiving the data because of preconceived ideas and biases. Something like that, anyway. I think you get the idea.

That is not where I start. I start with the assurance that the Book of Mormon is true because God tells me so, therefore Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and the Church he established is true.

Which proves my point, you refuse to separate the Book of Abraham from your idea that god told you that the Book of Mormon is true. You link the voice you heard in your head to three others things, i.e., Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and Book of Abraham. You are allowing the voice you heard in your head to cloud your judgement and to discount the evidences that prove all of them are false.

You are biased, unscientific, and illogical. You are the member of a cult bearing testimony to us that the voice you heard in your head is supreme over all other things. You've deceived yourself and I can safely reject your testimony as nonsense.

[_Shulem]

So your God is quantum physics, and you think that when you die you will continue your life in the hereafter as living and breathing quantum. Thanks for letting us know. It takes all kinds I suppose.

You just don't get it. My god is myself. I am my own god.

[_zerinus]

You know, I don't mean to be rude but I really don't think this is the best thread to be discussing a need for the Bible and Jesus' blood and all that Dark Age stuff. I for one have no use for the Bible. The god of the Old Testament really makes me sick. I can't stand him. He's the epitome of everything I consider to be evil. And Jesus, well, he makes me sick too. The whole thing of killing animals and spreading blood around and then killing Jesus on a cross for sins is the makings of a blood lusting cult. It's sick, sick, sick.

Now, please, take this discussion somewhere else. This thread is about Joseph Smith's papyrus.

Take no notice of that. A discussion of the Bible and the Book of Mormon are as relevant to this thread as is a discussion of the book of Abraham.

[_Philo Sofee]

Zerinus

Whatever it is, there will be other Christians of other theological bent who will disagree with yours, and who are equally convinced that theirs is biblical and yours is not. Who is to decide? The Bible obviously can’t be the deciding factor, because they all think that their theology is biblical, and they all disagree among themselves. So who gets to decide? Why should I accept your theology in preference to somebody else’s?

The atheist argument was never better presented....

[_Philo Sofee]

Zerinus

So your God is quantum physics,

I guarantee so is yours......

[_Philo Sofee]

Zerinus

Take no notice of that. A discussion of the Bible and the Book of Mormon are as relevant to this thread as is a discussion of the book of Abraham.

It absolutely is NOT. I originated this thread. The issue is the literal autographic claims of Joseph Smith, not other scriptures. YOU do not get to call the shots in THIS thread, I DO. I originated it. You are perfectly free to discuss the other scriptures in other threads you start. HERE they are irrelevant.

[_zerinus]

Now back to the subject of the thread, I think I have got it right that Joseph Smith thought he had a 3500 year old Abraham autograph, and I have SHOWN with evidence from Mormons in his day as well as himself WHY I think I am right. I am not bearing testimony, I am using Mormon evidence. Until you show it to be wrong or incorrect, I stand fully satisfied and justified in the conclusions, logically and historically deduced on what everyone can check for themselves. I have fully documented it for anyone's convenience.

I don’t think that evidence is conclusive as to exactly what was going on in Joseph Smith’s mind when he discovered the Egyptian scrolls. What is evident is that he believed that they contained the writings of the ancient patriarch Abraham, and was able to translate by the gift and power of God that portion of it that it was God’s will to be translated at that time. And I fully adhere to that.

[_zerinus]

Is it possible that Joseph Smith actually believed through his Holy Ghost that the papyrus he used to translate the Book of Abraham was a literal 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph? Is it POSSIBLE?

It is possible (certain) that Joseph Smith knew by the power of the Holy Ghost that the papyrus contained the writings of Abraham. Is it possible that he thereby also drew the inference (rightly or wrongly) that they were the original autographs? That is also possible. Is it also possible that he inadvertently used language to describe it that might unintentionally give that impression? That is also possible. Other possibilities also exist. One other possibility is that they are the original autographs, and the Egyptologists have got it wrong. Still another possibility is that what we currently have are not the ones that the book of Abraham were translated from. One thing we cannot have any doubts about is that he was a true prophet, and the current book of Abraham that we now have is what it claims to be.

[_Philo Sofee]

Is it possible that Joseph Smith actually believed through his Holy Ghost that the papyrus he used to translate the Book of Abraham was a literal 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph? Is it POSSIBLE?

It is possible (certain) that Joseph Smith knew by the power of the Holy Ghost that the papyrus contained the writings of Abraham. Is it possible that he thereby also drew the inference (rightly or wrongly) that they were the original autographs? That is also possible. Is it also possible that he inadvertently used language to describe it that might unintentionally give that impression? That is also possible. Other possibilities also exist. One other possibility is that they are the original autographs, and the Egyptologists have got it wrong. Still another possibility is that what we currently have are not the ones that the book of Abraham were translated from. One thing we cannot have any doubts about is that he was a true prophet, and the current book of Abraham that we now have is what it claims to be.

You forgot to say its also possible that Joseph Smith was wrong. Its also possible he is a false prophet. Its also possible you are wrong. The evidence shows all this, so it is very possible.