Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[_grindael]

Shulem,

Of course none of this is going to "shake" his "testimony". The blind elimination of his cognitive dissonance won't allow that. Facts don't matter to people like him. It's all about how he feels. Show a real document made by Smith, and it is "dubious". Show that it isn't, and he just shrugs it off. He will continue to play this game.

[_grindael]

But where does it say anything in there about the identity of the mummies, or their ages etc?

Appelby's account, gotten from Joseph himself, links the MUMMIES with the BOOK OF ABRAHAM. It's clear as day. But keep denying it. It's highly amusing to watch the show.

[_Shulem]

All you have done is to provide evidence that the exhibits are genuine. Thanks for doing that. But that proves what? I don't see that it proves anything that is materially relevant to the discussion, or affects the authenticity of the Book of Abraham.

I don't see that anything has changed by the evidence that you have presented so far. I have no more reason to disbelieve in the Book of Abraham as a result of the exchanges we have had than I ever did. You have said nothing that shakes my testimony of the truth of the Book of Abraham at any time.

Right now you're curled up in a ball in a fetal position - overwhelmed by all the evidence which I trust you will review in more detail as you have time. The seeds have been planted. You have been exposed to more than enough. You've received the injections needed which will lead to the destruction of your testimony. I understand that process quite well. I'm confident that you'll continue to review and research information which your church has been hiding from you and your testimony will not only shake, it will evaporate.

With that said, however, there is so much more about the Book of Abraham and it's making that would further erode your testimony. I know those things. You don't. Just think about all the stuff the church has been hiding from you. You keep reading the Explanations of the Facsimiles and ask yourself, "How can this be".

[_Shulem]

Shulem,

Of course none of this is going to "shake" his "testimony". The blind elimination of his cognitive dissonance won't allow that. Facts don't matter to people like him. It's all about how he feels. Show a real document made by Smith, and it is "dubious". Show that it isn't, and he just shrugs it off. He will continue to play this game.

The seeds have been planted and he's received the poison shot. All in good time, he'll lose his testimony. I'm confident of that.

[_Jersey Girl]

Shulem,

Of course none of this is going to "shake" his "testimony". The blind elimination of his cognitive dissonance won't allow that. Facts don't matter to people like him. It's all about how he feels. Show a real document made by Smith, and it is "dubious". Show that it isn't, and he just shrugs it off. He will continue to play this game.

How much do you think is invested in the thought that I know the church is true, therefore I have the truth and therefore, mine is the superior position because I'm superior enough to know what the truth is and...you aren't.

In other words, how much of this is tied to ego and how much investment is one willing to make in compromising their own integrity to the point where simple conventional terminology and reasoning--has to mean something else in order to maintain one's position?

What does a Nephite look like?
What does Nephite DNA look like?
If we don't know, we can't find it.
If we can't find it, that doesn't mean we're wrong.

What does translate really mean?
If the document doesn't match the translation.
Well then, Joseph saw the translation with his spiritual eyes.

Where is Cumorah?
It's in New York.
If it's not in New York, then it's on another continent entirely.


You know the drill. Mentalgymnastics indeed. I'll admit that it's fascinating to observe and yet at the same time, sad.

[_zerinus]

It's right in front of you, zerinus, all the evidence combined shows that Joseph Smith believed he had original autographs and royal mummies. The cult has brainwashed you so much that you're simply not connecting the dots. It's really not that complicated, it's not rocket science. I encourage you to read those three books I suggested earlier and then get yourself a full copy of the KEP. If you're having problems grasping the content of Manuscript 6 it's because you're overwhelmed.

If you still don't believe that Smith believed the rolls were autographs and he had a royal mummy, do you have any evidence to show the opposite? I'd love to review it.

I admit that I haven't made a study of the KEP, and I am not planning to. The controversy is not of special interest to me. My conviction of the truth of the Book of Abraham, like that of the Book of Mormon, comes from an unimpeachable source. There is nothing that is going to shake my testimony of that. If you want to convince me of anything in that regard, you are going to have to provide the evidence for it yourself, and make it convincing. You have to do the hard work yourself. If I question your evidence, you will have to do the work of making it convincing—regardless of how obvious it may appear to you to be.

Did Joseph Smith believe that he had the actual Abraham autographs? That is possible, but I am not just going to take your word for it—even though it may appear obvious to you. If you want to convince me, you will have to do that yourself. And I will question your evidence when I am not convinced, even though to you it may appear convincing.

And after you have convinced me that Joseph Smith believed he had the original autographs, you will have to show me how that disproves the Book of Abraham, and make it convincing. The burden is on you all the way. I am not going to make it easy for you. If you are convinced, then you shouldn't have difficulty making it convincing. But I am not just going to take your word for it. If you want to convince me of something, the burden is on you; and I will question it all the way.

[_Shulem]

One she said was a king of Egypt whom she named, two were his wives, and the remaining one was the daughter of another king. I asked her by what means she became acquainted with the names and histories of these mummies. She replied that her son had obtained this knowledge through the mighty power of God.

Mother Smith was quite a character. There is no doubt about it but the Mormons bragged about their mummies and scrolls - bragged about their god and their special powers. It was however, somewhat of a farce. Mormon god commanded them to build the temple in Missouri but that was not going to happen . . . .

You know, the Holy Ghost, which I experienced during my lengthy time in Mormonism really isn't any different than feelings I got after leaving the church and even today. It's those good and warm feelings that light up the heart and mind. I simply love them. They are the best. The thing is, you don't have to be a Mormon and get the Gift of the Holy Ghost to have them! Everyone, the human race, feels those warm feelings that often make us feel super special or even divine.

[_Shulem]

I admit that I haven't made a study of the KEP, and I am not planning to.

That's unfortunate that you are not planning to study those things that were very important to the First Presidency. If you don't, you'll never know what you are missing.

The controversy is not of special interest to me.

I get that, you're wrapped up in the Book of Mormon and assume the Book of Abraham and the controversies surrounding it are cancelled out based on your testimony. I once felt that way. I completely get it!

My conviction of the truth of the Book of Abraham, like that of the Book of Mormon, comes from an unimpeachable source.

I completely understand and used to feel the same way. I'm sure my many testimonies that I offered on this account are still recorded on the web. With that said, however, I think my testimonies were more forceful than what you bear on this board.

There is nothing that is going to shake my testimony of that.

Many have said the same thing. Many a saint has apostatized and there are many today doing just that. You know the old saying, Pride before the fall. Don't be so proud of your testimony. It can be broken.

If you want to convince me of anything in that regard, you are going to have to provide the evidence for it yourself, and make it convincing.

I have. Your pride and stiffnecked attitude has prevented you from opening the eyes of your mind and letting light in. I've presented plenty of evidence but you have eyes that see not, and ears that neither hear.

You have to do the hard work yourself. If I question your evidence, you will have to do the work of making it convincing—regardless of how obvious it may appear to you to be.

I've given you plenty of evidence showing you that the original autograph and royal mummies was what the Mormons claimed. It's just not what you wanted to hear or process because it went against your preconceived convictions. On the other hand, you've not given me any evidence to support your view. I can't question or challenge what you fail to present. After all, it's the Mormons making the original fantastic claims, not me.

[_zerinus]

One she said was a king of Egypt whom she named, two were his wives, and the remaining one was the daughter of another king. I asked her by what means she became acquainted with the names and histories of these mummies. She replied that her son had obtained this knowledge through the mighty power of God.

Mother Smith was quite a character. There is no doubt about it but the Mormons bragged about their mummies and scrolls - bragged about their god and their special powers. It was however, somewhat of a farce. Mormon god commanded them to build the temple in Missouri but that was not going to happen . . . .

It is obvious that you don't have an argument to present; you just want to vent your sarcasm and anti-Mormonism on me, and I am not interested in that. Take it to somebody else who will buy that kind of thing. I don't.

You know, the Holy Ghost, which I experienced during my lengthy time in Mormonism really isn't any different than feelings I got after leaving the church and even today. It's those good and warm feelings that light up the heart and mind. I simply love them. They are the best. The thing is, you don't have to be a Mormon and get the Gift of the Holy Ghost to have them! Everyone, the human race, feels those warm feelings that often make us feel super special or even divine.

That is a description of your kind of Holy Ghost maybe, not mine.

[_zerinus]

. . . If you're having problems grasping the content of Manuscript 6 it's because you're overwhelmed. . . .

There is nothing about "Manuscript 6" to "grasp". Here is the complete transcript of "Manuscript 6" From the Jospeh Smith Papers (slightly edited to make it more readable, and quotation marks added. "H" signifies Egyptian characters):

Document Transcript

[on the front cover, in the handwriting of Willard Richards:]

"Valuable Discovery of hiden reccords that have been obtained from the ancient buring place of the Egyptians
Joseph Smith Jr."

[inside front cover, in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery:]

[11 lines of Egyptian characters, followed by:]

"The above were taken from beneath the figures of two persons— one the appearance of a male and the other a femaul [female]."

[8 lines of Egyptian characters, followed by:]

"The above was taken from beneath figures like the first, standing a little to the left, and a little below. [p. 1]
[blank]"

[7 lines of Egyptian characters, followed by:] [p. 2]

[blank]

"HHH, Katamin, Princess, daughter of On-i-tas -[Pharaoh King]- of Egypt, who <began to> reigned in the year of the world 2962."

"H, Katumin was born in the 30th year of the reign of her father, and died when she was 28 years old, which was the year 3020."

[p. 3]

That is supposed to prove what?