Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[_Shulem]

I just don’t have enough information to make a decision. I am not a student of KEP, and I don’t feel the need to be. I just had a look at the information on Fair Mormon site:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... ian_Papers

[and I noticed too many uncertainties to make a decision, and I am not really interested either.

You still don't understand the question -- what is wrong with you? I asked you which way you lean concerning autographs & mummies based on the eyewitness testimonies that I supplied. Only one of them is from the KEP: Joseph Smith's direct quotes, translations, and signature to certify it was his revelation. The rest were from members and nonmembers alike who were reporting their experiences with President Smith and the Egyptian exhibit. None of it was anti-Mormon. It was friendly reporting from decent and honest folks. How hard is it to understand that?

Where do you lean? Quit telling me you aren't interested. That is lying. The fact that you're participating on this thread proves you're interested -- so stop lying to me.

PS. FAIR is not going to give you all the facts. They are biased and slanted. They base their presentation on the church is true no matter what and present evidence to support that conclusion. That's not how we do things here on this board, generally speaking. We look at the evidence objectively and make intelligent conclusions based on the facts -- not a testimony from an unseen ghost.

[_Shulem]

There is nothing about "Manuscript 6" to "grasp". Here is the complete transcript of "Manuscript 6" From the Jospeh Smith Papers (slightly edited to make it more readable, and quotation marks added. "H" signifies Egyptian characters)

That is supposed to prove what?

I'll tell you what, zerinus. This important document hid up in the church archives -- hidden from the church members for so long obviously proves something to the persons who made it. It was made by the founders of your church to include Oliver Cowdery and signed by Joseph Smith. Obviously it was important to them. So, you tell me, what do you think Oliver and Joseph were trying to prove and how might this documentation effect the authenticity of the Book of Abraham?

Don't just say you're not interested. I think you are. This document has a tale to be told! What might that be? Your church has hidden it from you for so long but due to pressure from internal and external sources the church finally caved in and published the KEP and other documents relating to this subject, to include the very papyrus in which Joseph translated and spent countless hours in meditation and prayer.

[_zerinus]

***TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN***
A copy of Joseph Smith's (damaged) Hypocephalus of Sheshonq, from the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, an ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPH written by the hand of Abraham

Note that Fig. 7 was damaged and Joseph Smith in his ignorance drew a fictitious substitute which slams the Egyptian gods. The Mormons do have a habit of slamming the Egyptian gods and perverting sacred images with lying graffiti.

Here is a correct Hypocephallus rendition of Min and Nehebu-Kau, each having an erect phallus. How is it that Joseph Smith who was so focused on his own penis and the ladies (including 14 year old girls) failed to restore Fig. 7 properly? He castrated one of the gods in Facsimile No. 2!

You are going nuts, not interested.

[_zerinus]

I'll tell you what, zerinus. This important document hid up in the church archives -- hidden from the church members for so long obviously proves something to the persons who made it. It was made by the founders of your church to include Oliver Cowdery and signed by Joseph Smith. Obviously it was important to them. So, you tell me, what do you think Oliver and Joseph were trying to prove and how might this documentation effect the authenticity of the Book of Abraham?

No idea, you tell me. And I also noticed the following information about the transcript of that particular item on the JSP site:

“The transcript of ‘Valuable discovery’ presented here is used with permission of Brian M. Hauglid, associate professor of ancient scripture, Brigham Young University. Hauglid is preparing a collection of Joseph Smith Egyptian materials, including this document, for print publication.”

And the bit containing Joseph Smith’s “signature” appears to be in Willard Richard’s handwriting. Nobody seems to know for sure what it all means or what it's original purpose was.

Don't just say you're not interested. I think you are.

Not enough to want to make a study of it, I assure you.

This document has a tale to be told! What might that be? Your church has hidden it from you for so long but due to pressure from internal and external sources the church finally caved in and published the KEP and other documents relating to this subject, to include the very papyrus in which Joseph translated and spent countless hours in meditation and prayer.

No idea, you tell me.

[_Shulem]

No idea, you tell me.

No idea, you tell me.

Not a chance. You want to know something, go figure it out yourself or, ask around. You won't get any help from me, for all I care. You can continue to have "No idea". I'm quite satisfied with the results of this thread. I've accomplished what I set out to do.

You're the laughing stalk on Mormon discussions. A buffoon. The class clown.

[_Maksutov]

Good book for Z to read...ha!

https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Reality-Kn ... inw_strp_1

[_zerinus]

Not a chance. You want to know something, go figure it out yourself or, ask around. You won't get any help from me, for all I care. You can continue to have "No idea". I'm quite satisfied with the results of this thread. I've accomplished what I set out to do.

LOL! That makes two of us then. Have a nice day.

You're the laughing stalk on Mormon discussions. A buffoon. The class clown.

Hadn’t expected anything better.

[_Lemmie]

Not enough to want to make a study of it, I assure you.

a new logical fallacy, a.k.a. appeal to [my personal] ignorance:

Description: The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on [my personal] lack of evidence to the contrary [which is wholly dependent upon closing my eyes while I read].

[_grindael]

Thanks to my friend Rick Grunder for bringing this to my attention. This is part of an interview done by a Correspondent of the Alexandria Gazette and appeared in their August 29, 1840 issue. http://www.rickgrunder.com/NewspapersFo ... braham.htm

It was a beautiful morning towards the close of April last, when the writer of the foregoing sketch, accompanied by, a friend, crossed the Mississippi River, from Montrose, to pay a visit to the prophet. As we approached his house, we saw him ride up and alight from his beautiful horse; and handing the bridle to one of his followers in attendance, he waited in front of his gate to receive us. A number of principal men of the place soon collected around, apparently anxious to hear the words which fell from his lips. His bearing towards them was like one who has authority; and the deference which they paid him convinced us that his dominion was deeply seated in the empire of their consciences. To our minds, profound knowledge of human nature had evidently taught him that, of all principles, the most omnipotent is the religious principle; and to govern men of certain classes, it is only necessary to control their religious sentiment.

After he had shown us the fine grounds around his dwelling, he conducted us, at our request, to an upper room, where he drew aside the curtains of a case, and showed us several Egyptian mummies, which we were told that the church had purchased, at his suggestion, some time before, for a large sum of money.

The embalmed body that stands near the centre of the case, said he, is one of the Pharaohs, who sat on the throne of Egypt; and the female figure by it was probably one of the daughters.

It may have been the princess Thermutis, I replied, the same that rescued Moses from the waters of the Nile.

It is not improbable, answered the Prophet; but my time has not yet allowed fully to examine and decide that point. Do you understand the Hebrew language, said he, raising his hand to the top of the case, and taking down a small Hebrew Grammar of Rabbi Seixas.

That language has not altogether escaped my attention, was the reply.

He then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

These ancient records, said he, throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There, said he, pointing to a particular character, that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.

It is indeed a most interesting autograph, I replied, and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.

Yes, replied the Prophet, and the translation hung up with them.

The entire interview may be read here, http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/SO ... htm#071140

Rick also provided a link to his Sunstone presentation from 2015 "TEACHER FOR THE TEMPLE:THE INFECTIOUS EXUBERANCE  OF JOSHUA SEIXAS" http://www.rickgrunder.com/seixas.pdf if anyone wants to read that. It's a great presentation.

[_Philo Sofee]

Thanks to my friend Rick Grunder for bringing this to my attention. This is part of an interview done by a Correspondent of the Alexandria Gazette and appeared in their August 29, 1840 issue. http://www.rickgrunder.com/NewspapersFo ... braham.htm

It was a beautiful morning towards the close of April last, when the writer of the foregoing sketch, accompanied by, a friend, crossed the Mississippi River, from Montrose, to pay a visit to the prophet. As we approached his house, we saw him ride up and alight from his beautiful horse; and handing the bridle to one of his followers in attendance, he waited in front of his gate to receive us. A number of principal men of the place soon collected around, apparently anxious to hear the words which fell from his lips. His bearing towards them was like one who has authority; and the deference which they paid him convinced us that his dominion was deeply seated in the empire of their consciences. To our minds, profound knowledge of human nature had evidently taught him that, of all principles, the most omnipotent is the religious principle; and to govern men of certain classes, it is only necessary to control their religious sentiment.

After he had shown us the fine grounds around his dwelling, he conducted us, at our request, to an upper room, where he drew aside the curtains of a case, and showed us several Egyptian mummies, which we were told that the church had purchased, at his suggestion, some time before, for a large sum of money.

The embalmed body that stands near the centre of the case, said he, is one of the Pharaohs, who sat on the throne of Egypt; and the female figure by it was probably one of the daughters.

It may have been the princess Thermutis, I replied, the same that rescued Moses from the waters of the Nile.

It is not improbable, answered the Prophet; but my time has not yet allowed fully to examine and decide that point. Do you understand the Hebrew language, said he, raising his hand to the top of the case, and taking down a small Hebrew Grammar of Rabbi Seixas.

That language has not altogether escaped my attention, was the reply.

He then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

These ancient records, said he, throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There, said he, pointing to a particular character, that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.

It is indeed a most interesting autograph, I replied, and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.

Yes, replied the Prophet, and the translation hung up with them.

The entire interview may be read here, http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/SO ... htm#071140

Rick also provided a link to his Sunstone presentation from 2015 "TEACHER FOR THE TEMPLE:THE INFECTIOUS EXUBERANCE  OF JOSHUA SEIXAS" http://www.rickgrunder.com/seixas.pdf if anyone wants to read that. It's a great presentation.

Excellent. I also included this in my paper which Zerinus of course, will not read and understand, but he certainly will automatically incorrectly label it. His desire to not learn the truth is incredible.