Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[_Kevin Graham]

May I enquire which way you lean towards based on the eyewitness evidences that have been presented so far?

The evidence presented to-date is not sufficient to convince me either way; and in any case, neither way would have a bearing on the truth claims of the Book of Abraham.

Stop with the charade already, you just look more and more like an idiot. First you pretend that you're even willing to consider evidence and then you say you won't read up on the KEP issue because you're not interested. You act like there is anything intellectual or rational about the TBM's position and keep implying that there isn't any evidence to invalidate the Book of Abraham but then when people go out of their way to present such evidence all you do is fall back on your bogus "umimpeachable source" that the Book of Abraham is what the Church says it is. So please, stop with the pretense about giving a flying damn about what the evidence actually says. Your position is a typical one, but you don't have the courage to just come out and say what it is. It amounts to nothing more than:

"I believe what I believe because of my feelings as dictated to me by the Church. Evidence and proof mean nothing to me because it is just Satan's way of tricking us."

[_grindael]

Stop with the charade already, you just look more and more like an idiot. First you pretend that you're even willing to consider evidence and then you say you won't read up on the KEP issue because you're not interested. You act like there is anything intellectual or rational about the TBM's position and keep implying that there isn't any evidence to invalidate the Book of Abraham but then when people go out of their way to present such evidence all you do is fall back on your bogus "umimpeachable source" that the Book of Abraham is what the Church says it is. So please, stop with the pretense about giving a flying damn about what the evidence actually says. Your position is a typical one, but you don't have the courage to just come out and say what it is. It amounts to nothing more than:

"I believe what I believe because of my feelings as dictated to me by the Church. Evidence and proof mean nothing to me because it is just Satan's way of tricking us."

It's called trolling, Kevin. That's what he does.

[_Shulem]

It's called trolling, Kevin. That's what he does.

Yep, a dishonorable and cowardly pursuit is zerinus's tactics.

I noticed in particular that zerinus steered clear of the claims Joseph Smith made that two of the figures in Facsimile No. 3 were identified as males when they are in fact, females. In defense of Joseph Smith he said there is something that the prophet knows that the rest of us (including the entire academic world of science & Egyptology) doesn't know. In reality, however, there is nothing in Joseph Smith's playbook that would justify calling a girl a boy, or a boy a girl for that matter. There is no excuse for Joseph Smith's blunder. He was caught in a lie with his pants down. Frankly, that wasn't the only time he was caught with his pants down, quite literally speaking.

[_zerinus]

Joseph Smith claimed to have original autographs of Egyptian papyri, some up to 4,000 years old according to the testimony of his companions.

I do not find the evidence you have prevented so far in that regard to be convincing. If that statement is indeed true (which it could be), you need to do a better job of presenting the evidence, because it is my intention to conduct a private investigation into this subject to determine the truth of that statement independently for myself.

The Book of Abraham and the Explanations present fictitious names that masquerade as original Egyptian. They are all wrong.

My explanation for that is that Joseph Smith knew something that the Egyptologists do not know or have not yet discovered.

The works of Joseph Smith pollute the memory of the Egyptians and are lies.

That only exposes your stupidity and ignorance.

Instead, let us honor the true memory of the Egyptians and the ancient land of KEMET.

I think that the ancient Egyptians would have been embarrassed to find you to be a champion of their cause.

Modern Egyptology to this day continues to honor and respect the entire history of this amazing race and works to ensure accuracy in deciphering the mysteries of this wonderful subject.

They may have made some progress in that regard, which is of course commendable; but they would be very misguided to assume that they have discovered all the truth; or that the truths they have discovered are fullproof and error-free.

I am grateful for modern Egyptology which has worked so hard in restoring the knowledge of ancient Egypt to the human race.

Thank you!

I am even more grateful to the prophet Joseph Smith who by revelation has given us the Book of Abraham (and other great scriptures like the Book of Moses and the Book of Mormon), with the promise of greater truths to be revealed at a later time.

Thank you too.

[_Maksutov]

Stop with the charade already, you just look more and more like an idiot. First you pretend that you're even willing to consider evidence and then you say you won't read up on the KEP issue because you're not interested. You act like there is anything intellectual or rational about the TBM's position and keep implying that there isn't any evidence to invalidate the Book of Abraham but then when people go out of their way to present such evidence all you do is fall back on your bogus "umimpeachable source" that the Book of Abraham is what the Church says it is. So please, stop with the pretense about giving a flying damn about what the evidence actually says. Your position is a typical one, but you don't have the courage to just come out and say what it is. It amounts to nothing more than:

"I believe what I believe because of my feelings as dictated to me by the Church. Evidence and proof mean nothing to me because it is just Satan's way of tricking us."

It's called trolling, Kevin. That's what he does.

The great church of the latterdays has turned into a haven for ignorant trolls. Thank you, Jesus.
Way to go, Z-boy. You make all Mormons look like cultish fanatics comparable to Heaven's Gate and the People's Temple.

Hey, if Z can come here and troll, you can also take the trolling to him. He can come here and post rubbish comments and stupid non sequiturs but he does have a silly screed on Amazon that he's proud of where you can leave your very thoughtful comments on the quality of his work.

[_zerinus]

I noticed in particular that zerinus steered clear of the claims Joseph Smith made that two of the figures in Facsimile No. 3 were identified as males when they are in fact, females. In defense of Joseph Smith he said there is something that the prophet knows that the rest of us (including the entire academic world of science & Egyptology) doesn't know. In reality, however, there is nothing in Joseph Smith's playbook that would justify calling a girl a boy, or a boy a girl for that matter. There is no excuse for Joseph Smith's blunder. He was caught in a lie with his pants down. Frankly, that wasn't the only time he was caught with his pants down, quite literally speaking.

I am not even convinced that the translations of all of the facsimiles originally published in the Times and Seasons were the works of Joseph Smith. It appears that others were allowed to attempt at translation, not just Joseph Smith; and their works (or guessworks) may have been published in the journal at the same time. See this link for some interesting information:

http://thebookofabraham.blogspot.co.uk

Later on when the Book of Abraham was canonized (long after Joseph’s death), those facsimile translations were all assumed to have been the works of Joseph Smith, when they may not have been. That is why I only stick to the text of the Book of Abraham as the authentic work of Joseph Smith, and leave the works on the facsimiles an open question. Of the three facsimiles, #2 is most likely to have been the authentic work of Joseph Smith, and the rest by others.

[_Shulem]

Science and Egyptology will NEVER, EVER, discover anything from the realms of ancient Egypt to vindicate the twisted and perverted Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. Those Explanations are utter lies and an abomination -- they slander the ancient Egyptians and make a mockery of their religion and sacred temples. I firmly believe that Joseph Smith has done more to slander and harm the memory of the ancient Egyptians than any other man in modern times.

1. Isis is Isis and ALWAYS has been for ever and ever. She is not a man. She is not mortal. She is not an earthly king. She has a divine vagina and is the mother of Horus for ever and ever.

2. Osiris is Osiris and ALWAYS has been for ever and ever. He is divine and sits atop his throne ruling heaven and vanquishing the enemies of KEMET -- to include the Israelites according to the Merneptah Stele and putting an end to the abominable god, Jehovah and his false prophet, Abraham.

[_Chap]

I am not even convinced that the translations of all of the facsimiles originally published in the Times and Seasons were the works of Joseph Smith. It appears that others were allowed to attempt at translation, not just Joseph Smith; and their works (or guessworks) may have been published in the journal at the same time. See this link for some interesting information:

http://thebookofabraham.blogspot.co.uk

Yes of course.

At the same time that Joseph Smith, who had been commissioned as Prophet of the Restoration, was receiving the translation of the Book of Abraham by revelation from The Lord, he had no problem with other people publishing their own 'attempts' at translation in the same journal, with no indication to the reader that one lot of stuff was true revelation though the Lord's prophet, while other stuff was some guy's uninspired attempt at making sense of hieroglyphs.

It's so obvious. The critics must be blind not to see how sensible this is.

I mean, that's just what a prophet conscious of his unique mission would do, right?

by the way - which of the miscellany of tests given on that link is the one that justifies your claim?

[_Shulem]

The Explanations of Facsimile No.1,2,3 are LDS Canon
----------------------------------------------------------------

"A SELECTION FROM THE REVELATIONS, TRANSLATIONS, AND NARRATIONS OF JOSEPH SMITH FIRST PROPHET, SEER, AND REVELATOR TO THE CHURCH OF Jesus Christ OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS"

"These items were produced by the Prophet Joseph Smith and were published in the Church periodicals of his day."

". . . . became a standard work of the Church by action of the First Presidency and the general conference in Salt Lake City on October 10, 1880"

"The translation was published serially in the Times and Seasons"

Spent the day in the printing Office we struck off about 500 No of the 10 No 3 vol of the Times & Seasons which contained the portion of the Book of Abraham that gave his account of Kolob, Oliblish, God sitting upon his Throne, The Earth, other planets & many great & glorious things as revealed to Abraham through the power of the priesthood. The truths of the Book of Abraham are truly edifying great & glorious which are among the rich treasures that are revealed unto us in the last days.

It should be noted that Joseph Smith as chief editor of the Times & Seasons said he took full responsibility for the content.

[_Shulem]

It should be noted that Joseph Smith as chief editor of the Times & Seasons said he took full responsibility for the content.

Joseph acted as director of the print shop and was listed as editor in the Times and Seasons, but operation was actually run by John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff. In November 1842, Taylor became the principal editor, but was still assisted by Woodruff. The printing office was eventually sold to Taylor directly in January 1844

We examined
the historical evidence surrounding the editorials and
conducted a detailed stylometric analysis of the texts,
comparing the writing style in the editorials with
the writing styles of Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and
Wilford Woodruff—the only men involved with the
newspaper during the time the editorials were published.
Both the historical and stylometric evidence
point toward Joseph Smith as the most likely author of
the editorials. Even if he did not write them alone, he
took full responsibility for the contents of the newspaper
during his editorial tenure when he stated, “I
alone stand for it.”