Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

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_Kishkumen
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Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Kishkumen »

OK, so my opening post title is meant in good fun. But, let's face it, it was Nephi, whom Joseph Smith, Jr. consistently claimed was the angel who visited him repeatedly and delivered to him the Gold Plates.

Read Denver Snuffer's argument for Nephi, which I find highly useful and persuasive:

If Joseph identified the angel who visited him in September 1823 by the name “Nephi” throughout his life, using it in three drafts of his history, using it in the newspaper he edited, and not changing when given many opportunities to do so, the conclusion it was a “clerical error” that was corrected by “an unknown hand” is at best insufficient.

http://denversnuffer.com/2016/10/joseph-smith-papers-2/

And, here's the thing:

The identity of the angel really does matter.

Think about it: Even if Joseph Smith made all of it up, we ought to give him the benefit of the doubt concerning the existence of some plan, some schema as he put his mythos together.

Moroni is the last prophet to possess the plates, and he buried them, so that makes him an attractive candidate for the identity of the angel who passed his charge over to Joseph as the artifacts' new steward.

But Nephi was the person who gathered the artifacts, the person most responsible for putting the collection together. Indeed, it would also be correct to say that the plates were part of the royal relics of the Nephite Dynasty, at the head of which King Nephi stood:

2 Nephi 5:18 wrote:And it came to pass that they would that I should be their king. But I, Nephi, was desirous that they should have no king; nevertheless, I did for them according to that which was in my power.


King Nephi's dynasty was given America as his land, so both the relics of his reign and the dominion he was given were his to pass along to the new Josephite king in America: Joseph Smith, Jr.

Now, you may be thinking, "WTF, dude?!?!?!?" Josephite king in America?

In this regard, consider the letter of Joseph Smith' Jr.'s cousin, Jesse Smith, of 17 June 1829:

Jesse Smith wrote:he writes that the Angel of the Lord has revealed to him the hidden treasures of wisdom & knowledge, even divine revelation, which has lain in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years [and] is at last made known to him, he says he has eyes to see things that are not, and then has the audacity to say they are; And this Angel of the Lord (Devil it should be) has put me in possession of great wealth, gold and silver and precious stones so that I shall have the dominion in all the land of Palmyra.


So the angel, who, as Denver Snuffer demonstrates is Nephi, shows Joseph Smith where "treasures of wisdom & knowledge, even divine revelation" are buried, and, moreover, "put into [his] possession great wealth... so that [he would] have the dominion in all the land of Palmyra."

Joseph Smith is being given a kingdom by the land's former king. The location of the relics in the Hill Cumorah in the vicinity of Palmyra is absolutely key. The "Two Cumorahs Theory" is completely nonsense. The royal relics of the Nephite Dynasty were buried near the capital of Joseph Smith's future kingdom (as he conceived of it at the time).

This is why the identity of the angel really does matter. Sure, it would make sense for the last possessor of the relics to hand them off to their new owner. But, it seems that Joseph Smith had something a little more suggestive and potent in mind. In his mind, Nephi, the king of the Land of Promise, is handing off his sacred, royal relics to Joseph Smith, who, as their new possessor, will have "dominion in the land of Palmyra."
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Nightlion
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Nightlion »

:lol:
You academics are hilarious. Some cousin wrote something therefore stop thinking and hold this scrap up as the Pearl of Great Price.
I thought you guys were all about discipline and rigor in your judgements. Can you not suspect she felt free to goose up the story?
If true in the least bit, why was Joseph's entire life bedraggled in abject poverty?

DS is a Heartlander? :cool:

She wrote it and so it IS TRUE history. :eek:
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Kishkumen »

Nightlion wrote::lol:
You academics are hilarious. Some cousin wrote something therefore stop thinking and hold this scrap up as the Pearl of Great Price.
I thought you guys were all about discipline and rigor in your judgements. Can you not suspect she felt free to goose up the story?
If true in the least bit, why was Joseph's entire life bedraggled in abject poverty?

DS is a Heartlander? :cool:

She wrote it and so it IS TRUE history. :eek:


With all due respect, Nightlion: It was Joseph Smith, Jr., who said the angel was Nephi. Repeatedly. And he never changed his mind about that. So, you may want to reconsider your tactic of blaming the academics. Because you are not at odds with the academics on this one. You are at odds with Joseph Smith, Jr.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_I have a question
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _I have a question »

Was anything the Church taught me in my youth about Church history true?
Nothing it teaches now as Church History, was what I was taught 30/40 years ago.
And everything I was taught was an anti-Mormon lie is now suddenly in official essays as Historical Fact.

Denver makes more than a case for it being Nephi - not least of which is the number of times scribes and Joseph made the "mistake" of calling Moroni, Nephi in written accounts.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Maksutov
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Maksutov »

I remember the Tanners bringing this up long ago but never treating it in such depth. The implications are quite profound. I want to know about all of the other "angels" that are unnamed and what they communicated. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Kishkumen »

I am curious to know what it was the overall picture looks like when we put all of these things together. Some of these things really make a difference. Errors obfuscate, in my view.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Nightlion
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Nightlion »

Kishkumen wrote:
Nightlion wrote::lol:
You academics are hilarious. Some cousin wrote something therefore stop thinking and hold this scrap up as the Pearl of Great Price.
I thought you guys were all about discipline and rigor in your judgements. Can you not suspect she felt free to goose up the story?
If true in the least bit, why was Joseph's entire life bedraggled in abject poverty?

DS is a Heartlander? :cool:

She wrote it and so it IS TRUE history. :eek:


With all due respect, Nightlion: It was Joseph Smith, Jr., who said the angel was Nephi. Repeatedly. And he never changed his mind about that. So, you may want to reconsider your tactic of blaming the academics. Because you are not at odds with the academics on this one. You are at odds with Joseph Smith, Jr.

I am not denying Nephi was the angel. Just that quoting the cousin as validation about wealth and such is absurd. I lost my patience over forty years ago. I struggle daily to sequester them in some sense of respect and decorum. So far, meh.

Nephi was in fact once caught up to fly through the air. Moroni never did. Nephi on temples is actually more appropriate.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Kishkumen »

Nightlion wrote:I am not denying Nephi was the angel. Just that quoting the cousin as validation about wealth and such is absurd. I lost my patience over forty years ago. I struggle daily to sequester them in some sense of respect and decorum. So far, meh.

Nephi was in fact once caught up to fly through the air. Moroni never did. Nephi on temples is actually more appropriate.


I am not sure who the cousin is in this case.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_sock puppet
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _sock puppet »

Nightlion wrote::lol:
You academics are hilarious. Some cousin wrote something therefore stop thinking and hold this scrap up as the Pearl of Great Price.
I thought you guys were all about discipline and rigor in your judgements. Can you not suspect she felt free to goose up the story?
If true in the least bit, why was Joseph's entire life bedraggled in abject poverty?

DS is a Heartlander? :cool:

She wrote it and so it IS TRUE history. :eek:

How many that live in abject poverty have a mansion house, a store, etc.?
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: Nephi, Not Moroni, You Idiot

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

The Book of Mormon states that every Nephite king after Nephi will be called a "Nephi", like Pharaoh. Moroni bore that name.
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