On audits, elections and public trust

[Gunnar]

I still can't get over my bewilderment and incredulity that ME actually chose to vote for Trump in the 2020 election. That alone is very telling. If he was really successfully duped into voting for someone as demonstrably corrupt, dishonest, incompetent and narcissistic as Trump, no wonder he was duped into taking seriously Trump's big lie that the election might have been stolen from him, or that VBM was somehow inherently fraudulent. I still find it hard to believe that his change of mind about the efficacy of VBM after the election was motivated by anything other than it did go the way he wanted.

[Gunnar]

Nice point Doc, about the cognitive dissonance of simultaneously believing that the actual events of January 6th needs no further investigation, while the rumors of Beijing's bogus bamboo ballots deserve our full attention.

Nice point indeed, if ME really believes that the January 6 events need no further investigation. Did he actually say that?

[Gunnar]

That was not “all the evidence.” There were no “testimonies.”

Now that is just downright disingenuous! "There were no testimonies" only because, by Trump's own lawyers' admission, they could or would not provide any evidence of widespread voter fraud, or even dared explicitly claim that there was, despite repeated requests by numerous courts to provide it, if they had it. Even Trump appointed judges rebuked them for the frivolity and insubstantiality of their case! They hugely embarrassed themselves on Trump's behalf, and they knew it!

But I am fine with you choosing not to participate in future elections that permit VBM. Like you said to us, "you do you."

[Gunnar]

After all the foregoing discussion and some further pondering over the issue, I have to admit that I have one big reservation about VBM. VBM makes it possible to mail in or turn in one's ballot days or even up to a month before election day. What if during the weeks or month leading up to the election, unequivocal and scandalous evidence comes to light proving that the candidate you already turned in your ballot for is a totally despicable fraud and con artist? How do you go about reversing that vote? But, if it should become mandatory that, barring extenuating circumstances, voting has to be in person on election day only, election day should either become a legal national holiday or moved to a weekend day when most people don't have to go to work.

[Chap]

VBM makes it possible to mail in or turn in one's ballot days or even up to a month before election day. What if during the weeks or month leading up to the election, unequivocal and scandalous evidence comes to light proving that the candidate you already turned in your ballot for is a totally despicable fraud and con artist? How do you go about reversing that vote?

Leaving aside the question of how, if at all, US voters can invalidate a mail-in ballot once cast, about which I know nothing, I think we may reasonably continue to leave the decision about when to mail in their ballot up to the voter, for these reasons:

(a) Most voters make up their mind well before elections on broad grounds of identity and self-interest, and don't change their vote much as they get nearer the day itself.

(b) Last-minute allegations of scandal, carefully timed to be so close to election day that the accused candidate has no time for effective rebuttal, are not necessarily something whose weight in deciding an election needs to be encouraged.

(c) All in all, the positive influence of easy mail-in voting on facilitating and encouraging participation in an election outweighs any downside factors.

I have voted by mail in the UK for years, and have never had cause to change my vote at the last minute.

[Chap]

On a separate point, I think this thread may be an appropriate context in which to notemy impression that some posters just to have an angry and abuse-filled style of posting, and some don't. It seems to be specific to the poster, and does not vary much with the particular topic discussed. (Or maybe such posters choose topics that enable them to do their angry thing?)

For some of the 'angries', I think the underlying motivation is a wish to affirm a style of (usually) masculinity which is important to their self-esteem. For others, it may stem from their personal history. I have seen one or two examples where the angry stuff seems to be associated with a certain bitterness caused by looking back on the way a now abandoned Mormon identity was (for them) a locus of deceit and constraint - "I was fooled by people I trusted for years, and I'll be damned if I let anybody fool me now!" That is perhaps an understandable attitude, even if it makes it difficult to have a discussion without a lot of shouting going on.

[Gunnar]

VBM makes it possible to mail in or turn in one's ballot days or even up to a month before election day. What if during the weeks or month leading up to the election, unequivocal and scandalous evidence comes to light proving that the candidate you already turned in your ballot for is a totally despicable fraud and con artist? How do you go about reversing that vote?

Leaving aside the question of how, if at all, US voters can invalidate a mail-in ballot once cast, about which I know nothing, I think we may reasonably continue to leave the decision about when to mail in their ballot up to the voter, for these reasons:

(a) Most voters make up their mind well before elections on broad grounds of identity and self-interest, and don't change their vote much as they get nearer the day itself.

(b) Last-minute allegations of scandal, carefully timed to be so close to election day that the accused candidate has no time for effective rebuttal, are not necessarily something whose weight in deciding an election needs to be encouraged.

(c) All in all, the positive influence of easy mail-in voting on facilitating and encouraging participation in an election outweighs any downside factors.

I have voted by mail in the UK for years, and have never had cause to change my vote at the last minute.

Thank you for that perfectly rational, reassuring response, Chap. I'm quite certain you are almost certainly right about that, and I am still strongly in favor of voting by mail. However, I have noticed that in some cases, weekly or daily opinion polls leading up to a very close election can change just barely enough to alter the outcome of the election. In the 2016 election, for example, James Comey's untimely letter on October 28 might have done just that. Hillary Clinton said: "If the election had been on Oct. 27, I would be your president." I think she may have been right about that. Of course, in that case the results might have been more to my liking if most of the votes had been mailed in before election day, and less to the liking of some voters who eventually voted for Trump, but who might have already voted for Hillary had they been among those who mailed in ballots early.

Regardless, I am still strongly in favor of election day being either designated a national holiday or moved to a weekend day for the sake of voters who choose to vote in person on the official election day.

[Mayan Elephant]

That was not “all the evidence.” There were no “testimonies.”

Now that is just downright disingenuous! "There were no testimonies" only because, by Trump's own lawyers' admission, they could or would not provide any evidence of widespread voter fraud, or even dared explicitly claim that there was, despite repeated requests by numerous courts to provide it, if they had it. Even Trump appointed judges rebuked them for the frivolity and insubstantiality of their case! They hugely embarrassed themselves on Trump's behalf, and they knew it!

But I am fine with you choosing not to participate in future elections that permit VBM. Like you said to us, "you do you."

You do realize that you make no sense, again, right?

In typical ideological style, you are taking a line out of context, placing it in another context, arriving at ridiculous conclusion, and nothing is on topic.

The evidence and testimony lines had nothing to do with lawyers and courts and Trump, you clown. Be drunk better. That is not “angry” by the way, I am helping you out here. Be drunk better.

[Mayan Elephant]

Nice point indeed, if ME really believes that the January 6 events need no further investigation. Did he actually say that?

Holy hell. you are insane.

Answer your own question. Did I actually say that?

This is, again, more of the hive and silo nonsense playing out. Answer your own question, Gunner. And then explain who actually said it.

And then, you and Doc Scam and your ilk can carry on with another conversation about who is angry or disingenuous while you get each other off with your hoaxes and mini conspiracies.

And chap, stop with the “some posters” are angry stuff. If you got something to say to Doc Scam and Gummar about their hostile ideological threats and insults, go ahead and say it. I got your back. [insert smiley/frowney face]

[Mayan Elephant]

I still can't get over my bewilderment and incredulity that ME actually chose to vote for Trump in the 2020 election. That alone is very telling. If he was really successfully duped into voting for someone as demonstrably corrupt, dishonest, incompetent and narcissistic as Trump, no wonder he was duped into taking seriously Trump's big lie that the election might have been stolen from him, or that VBM was somehow inherently fraudulent. I still find it hard to believe that his change of mind about the efficacy of VBM after the election was motivated by anything other than it did go the way he wanted.

Let's do this again, just for fun. Line by line.

I still can't get over my bewilderment and incredulity that ME actually chose to vote for Trump in the 2020 election.

Again, gunner is tremendously conscientious here. Right? Bewildered! What an amazing clarity he has. Oh, that is not all. HE is incredulous. So, we all need to pacify his bewilderment and his incredulousness and help him get his feelings under control. His bewilderment, His incredulousness. And over what? My vote. More votes for Trump than Obama got, but hey, he is melting down over this one particular vote.

If he was really successfully duped into voting for someone as demonstrably corrupt, dishonest, incompetent and narcissistic as Trump, no wonder he was duped into taking seriously Trump's big lie that the election might have been stolen from him, or that VBM was somehow inherently fraudulent.

Again, gunnar is making his ideological statement with logic that is unfit for a toddler. Effectively, he is saying that IF he was duped, then "no wonder" he was duped, or that he was also duped.

While this logic may soothe his own bewilderment and incredulous emotional tantrum, it makes no sense and is based on (brace yourself) his gaslighting assumption that exactly the OPPOSITE of what I said I believe is what I actually believe. What a Dick!

That alone is very telling.

I could not have said it better myself.


Thank you gunner. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you. You and Dr. Cam are like a live skit of ideological parody and your own grand masterpieces of drawn fault lines.

I will say this over, and over and over and over and over again and again.

You can lie to me, I may never know.
You can lie about me, I may never know.
When you lie to me about me, I know. Gunner, you are a liar and a dick (pseudo-clinically speaking). And I know it. Thanks for the receipts.

I am not being pejorative or angry by calling you a liar and a dick, by the way. You are a liar (see above) and a dick is an archetype and you are just being one of them. Don't overthink it, just be less dickish.