MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_grindael]

And I think we can only speak for ourselves and not others.

And when you do, it is incoherent psychobabble.

[_Aero]

So, you admit that having knowledge does not take away or pre-empt our free will. Maybe you will stop using that argument for the need to live by faith in the future since you admit it isn't valid.

In the pre-mortal realm, that appears to have been the case. I suppose the argument comes down to whether or not it is necessary for us to live by faith while here on earth.

Then if living by faith is the default here on earth, then we no longer have true free will. Without knowledge a true choice is impossible.

Can the Holy Ghost speak to every single individual on the planet or can't he?

I don't know if 'in the wild', so to speak, that is a reasonable position to take. I think that one needs to understand and be susceptible to the influence of the Holy Ghost. I don't think that His influence can be forced on anyone.

So, the Holy Ghost does not testify of truth to everyone that hears said truth? That seems to contradict the missionary message.

You do believe that if everyone was listening that the Holy Ghost could reach every single person on the planet though, right?

[_I have a question]

One way or the other, IHAQ, these sorts of purported spiritual phenomena are very difficult to articulate and describe. Maybe you've had similar experiences in your life? If so, have you been able to fully explain them to yourself independent of outside influence(s)?

Others?

Regards,
MG

I have had one such experience in relation to the Book of Mormon. I feel it only fair to share it.
(And regardless of what people may think, this is a genuine experience that I had)

I prayed about the Book of Mormon and I almost instantly felt what I would describe as an adrenaline rush, combined with increased heart beat, a hot flush but combined with a calming of the mind about the surety of the answer. I had that experience and I can not deny it.

Where does that leave me?

[_mentalgymnast]

Mental on another thread,

I can not explain my spiritual evidence with/to you and you cannot explain yours to me. It's like trying to explain the taste of salt.

And yet now he says it is like a "burning in the bosom". See what I mean? They can't get their stories straight about any of this because it is all ____.

It IS very difficult to describe. Even as I say, "Burning in the bosom", I find myself asking, "What in the heck does that even really mean?" But I know what it was something beyond the norm and/or what I would have expected.

When you were on your mission and/or at any other time in your life, have you ever had a 'spiritual experience' that even now, years later, you find it difficult to explain by simply saying, "It was just the natural senses." Or, "It was heartburn after a big bowl of chili."

Seems like you'd be the kind of guy that would have to have God use the 'hammer method'. But even then, I think you have to somehow be open to it. You don't sound like you are.

Regards,
MG

[_grindael]

And yes, it is puzzling why folks can either make wrong decisions and/or be led the wrong way through what they think have been spiritual influence/impressions.

It isn't puzzling at all, because it is all made up. And there is the easy out that it is just SO DIFFICULT for God to communicate with his people that they often just mistake it for something else. What a great system of communication! It is like the claim that a man is a prophet if he only gets it right one in ten times. Utterly ludicrous, but so many seriously put this out as a real thing.

This is so utterly ridiculous that it is almost unbelievable that some are seriously trying to pawn it off on others. But people will literally fall for anything, so why should this be any different?

[_mentalgymnast]

And I think we can only speak for ourselves and not others.

And when you do, it is incoherent psychobabble.

I can only do my best, even though it may not be good enough for you.

Regards,
MG

[_grindael]

Seems like you'd be the kind of guy that would have to have God use the 'hammer method'. But even then, I think you have to somehow be open to it. You don't sound like you are.

This isn't about me, it's about you. You are the one making the claims here. The incoherent conflicting claim that it can't be explained, then only difficult to articulate. Which is it and why did you change your tune?

[_Aero]

Can the Holy Ghost speak to every single individual on the planet or can't he?

Are you seeing this as a direct equivalence to God speaking "face-to-face" to everyone?

You are the one that set the arbitrary standard of a face-to-face meeting (or at least you have latched onto it and continue to present it as such). And while I believe a truly omnipotent God could probably figure out a way to make that happen, I don't think it is necessary for God to do that in order to make sure that everyone understands his will. A sufficiently loud voice heard by every single inhabitant of the planet in their own spoken language would probably suffice to convince everyone of God's existence. He could take over every tv set, computer, phone, and device on the planet and share his message as well.

Those two are just off the top of my head. If I can think of them, surely an omnipotent, omniscient God should be able to think of them and carry them out as well. If not, then he isn't very powerful because I think with enough effort, man could probably broadcast something everywhere to everyone in their own language (ie Super Bowl, World Cup, etc.). Is man more capable than God?

You have set up a straw man when you claim the face-to-face standard as the bare minimum to accomplish this goal and then declare it impossible for an omnipotent God to accomplish.

[_grindael]

I can only do my best, even though it may not be good enough for you.

What, lying that it could not be described and then saying it could be, but it was difficult? Right, that's good enough for SOME people?

[_mentalgymnast]

So, you admit that having knowledge does not take away or pre-empt our free will. Maybe you will stop using that argument for the need to live by faith in the future since you admit it isn't valid.

In the pre-mortal realm, that appears to have been the case. I suppose the argument comes down to whether or not it is necessary for us to live by faith while here on earth.

Then if living by faith is the default here on earth, then we no longer have true free will. Without knowledge a true choice is impossible.

Then it becomes a question of just how much knowledge is necessary in order to live by faith. I think that may vary from person to person. For you, apparently, full disclosure is necessary for you to believe. But then would that be faith? What is that line between faith and knowledge? And who knows where that line should be drawn? And why.

Regards,
MG