MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_grindael]

It is so difficult for some to understand and appreciate the wonder of our (mankind's) sui generis, without having to attribute it to some kind of deity. Because mankind is sometimes depraved, it simply has to be from some outside influence. The bad comes with the good.

It all started long ago, when Jo the caveman was caught with another woman by his mate. It wasn't me, he exclaimed, it was the spirit of an evil baboon. He made me do it. Jo still had to spend the night outside of the cave in the rain, and his mate took Jo's club and whacked that other woman till she screamed and ran.

[_I have a question]

If one is to believe in Joseph's First Vision, it becomes apparent that hindsight brought him greater clarity. I don't see anything inherently problematic with that.

Regards,
MG

That’s because you haven’t studied the context within which those embellishments happened.
I suggest you do so and then you will be able to acknowledge there is context to suggest that the developing story, the embellishments, were increasingly unreliable amendments at best and at worst deliberately self-serving.

Smith, by materially changing his first vision story, reveals the pattern he applied to all four of his foundational visions—especially the angel gold plates saga, the priesthood restoration, and the first vision. All follow the embellished pattern of becoming more physical, impressive, unique, and miraculous (the last two during times of crisis), as time went on.

http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#palmer

Plus, your overarching principle that you become clearer about experiences over time is also baseless. Actually, it’s worse than baseless, it’s completely at odds with what is demonstrable and known about the human memory. “...hindsight brought him greater clarity” is a fundamentally flawed statement.

But neuroscientists have shown that each time we remember something, we are reconstructing the event, reassembling it from traces throughout the brain. Psychologists have pointed out that we also suppress memories that are painful or damaging to self-esteem. We could say that, as a result, memory is unreliable. We could also say it is adaptive, reshaping itself to accommodate the new situations we find ourselves facing. Either way, we have to face the fact that it is “flexible.”

For most of us that usually means we recall a rosier past than we actually had, though some of us are tormented by memories of a painful past we can’t shake and that seems to get worse every time we revisit them. But for all of us that means an incomplete past.

Nothing brings this home better than the memories of witnesses in trials, one of the cornerstones of our legal system. All too many people have been put behind bars on the testimony of witnesses, who when challenged by more objective data have been later proved to be misremembering.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hi ... ble-memory

[_DrW]

Doc,

Looks as though this thread has pretty much run its course. It needs at least one more contribution however, quoting your earlier post - a post to which no one upthread responded. You made an important observation here and it seemed to have been been dismissed - as you predicted.

I know this will get dismissed, and if I type too many letters it'll just get passed over, so I'll attempt to keep it short for our resident entrenchers.

- Death, or absolute annihilation, is inevitable and to some extent unpredictable.

- This produces existential terror, or dread, or fear, or angst.

- We manage our terror, or dread, or fear, or angst embracing cultural values. Culture in context to this board is the total system of Mormonism.

- People who struggle with existential terror, or dread, or fear, or angst tend to opt for total systems offering immortality, national identity, posterity, and sex. Basically what we see in Mormonism, Islam, and other structured systems.

- Symbolic immortality is also offered by participating in a Marvelous Work and a Wonder; being part of something greater that will ultimately outlive the individual.

- As a result the individual derives value from the system, ie, self-esteem or something akin.

- The terror of death, or absolute and inevitable annihilation, creates such a profound psychological effect in people that laws are created to govern everyone that rewards people who stick to the system and punish or kill others who do not adhere to their cultural worldview.

This is why it isn't unusual to see the energy and behavior expended on religion transfer to some other symbol of immortality such as politics or whatever. Interestingly enough, I see The CCC in the Spirit Paradise forum, commit to both religious and political affiliation to ameliorate his existential dread. You can literally show the believer an example of their preferred system doing the exact same thing they themselves say they despise, but it only causes entrenchment.

Some people come around. Some people don't. You'd have to find a way to address mental entrenchment and existential angst in order for the latter to change their worldview.

- Doc

[_Nightlion]

Ahem. Well, allow me a final word, if you please.

GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT

You haters did not just suddenly hate. You always hated. You spent two eternities with the dread of God hardening your heart. You self loathe because you did not have the guts to rebel with your worshipful idol. All you can do now that you continue to be stuck in God's creations is to spill your bile to relieve your inner stink. And the fact that none of you have the civility to keep it to yourselves proves the devils that you wish you were but cowardice took you away from your fond desire.

[_Tator]

GIGO & etc, maybe sometime in the future there will a vaccine for that.

[_fetchface]

You haters did not just suddenly hate. You always hated. You spent two eternities with the dread of God hardening your heart. You self loathe because you did not have the guts to rebel with your worshipful idol. All you can do now that you continue to be stuck in God's creations is to spill your bile to relieve your inner stink. And the fact that none of you have the civility to keep it to yourselves proves the devils that you wish you were but cowardice took you away from your fond desire.

Lol. Behold Nightlion, the master of the hateful denunciation of the "haters."

[_Gadianton]

You spent two eternities with the dread of God hardening your heart.

Two eternities? Eternity is a long time. Consider graham's number.. Yet, even if that number represented the number of years passing, it would be a pin prick compared to eternity. And here there are two eternities.

Two eternities for what? Do you really think, Nightlion, that it took two eternities for ever single person on this forum -- not to mention every other person you've ever met -- to psyche themselves up to the point where they, lo and behold, become unwilling to take your apocalrock sightings and rants on the scriptures seriously?

If instead of two eternities, there had only been one, would we be more willing to listen? What if we'd only spent a billion trillion years, not even a pin prick compared to graham's number, psyching ourselves up in hatred so that one day, we'd not take your posts on mormondiscussions seriously? Would we be more likely then to take it seriously?

[_Philo Sofee]

GIGO & etc, maybe sometime in the future there will a vaccine for that.

It's already here. It's called scientific thinking...... using logic and evidence.

[_Tator]

GIGO & etc, maybe sometime in the future there will a vaccine for that.

It's already here. It's called scientific thinking...... using logic and evidence.

I like it a vaccination without the needle.

[_Nightlion]

You spent two eternities with the dread of God hardening your heart.

Two eternities? Eternity is a long time. Consider graham's number.. Yet, even if that number represented the number of years passing, it would be a pin prick compared to eternity. And here there are two eternities.

Two eternities for what? Do you really think, Nightlion, that it took two eternities for ever single person on this forum -- not to mention every other person you've ever met -- to psyche themselves up to the point where they, lo and behold, become unwilling to take your apocalrock sightings and rants on the scriptures seriously?

If instead of two eternities, there had only been one, would we be more willing to listen? What if we'd only spent a billion trillion years, not even a pin prick compared to graham's number, psyching ourselves up in hatred so that one day, we'd not take your posts on mormondiscussions seriously? Would we be more likely then to take it seriously?

No, you see, dear bud, that there is a beginning and an end to the first estate and then to the second estate in the spirit world. Two eternities each billions and billions of years in Grahm's numbers I suppose.

I am not grousing about me being rejected and that nobody is fawning over my abundance of true insights. Or about the greatest revelation since the beginning of time, namely, The Apocalrock. Just the rampant God hate and Joseph hate......it looks as ridiculous as Trump hate. He even got blamed for those racist cheerleaders from Weber High. Such is hate.