OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

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_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

beastie wrote:You seriously have no idea why our communication was unsuccessful on this thread as it has been on a few others.

Ok.

It seems so obvious to me but I accept that you're blind to it.

You enter the thread and immediately begin to insinuate, and then flat out state, that I'm no better than cam and am destroying democracy.

I tried to not take the bait, but you insisted that I take it.

Then you wonder why you couldn't successfully communicate your ideas to me.

I did insinuate that the argument being presented in the OP largely quoting from an article, followed by Cam's two posts, were examples of the activities that are often lumped into so-called gamergate (the expanded notion where it stopped being about the gaming industry and instead became...well what the first three posts in this thread reflect) and are reflective of where I see real threats to democracy. I disagree rather strongly with both your and Cam's positions. Those reasons have been expressed in the thread, and I suppose it doesn't help to do it again here. I don't think that constitutes bait but if the only agreeable option was to note places of agreement from which to build I'm at a loss if trying to use our past discussions on bias didn't serve that purpose. Perhaps it wasn't as diplomatically stated as it should have been.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Honor, I’m having trouble understanding your argument here, which bothers me. I’m not even sure if what, exactly I need to clarify. Maybe here: what do you mean by the types of activities in Gamergate? Let’s start with the narrow version confined to the gaming industry, and then expand then to those lumped into gamer gate in the more general context.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:Honor, I’m having trouble understanding your argument here, which bothers me. I’m not even sure if what, exactly I need to clarify. Maybe here: what do you mean by the types of activities in Gamergate? Let’s start with the narrow version confined to the gaming industry, and then expand then to those lumped into gamer gate in the more general context.

Within the gaming industry, the debate is hard to isolate as the subcultural nuances very easily and quickly overlap broader cultural concerns. But to answer the question recognizing that each ballooned beyond the subculture, the narrow issues include:

1) The techniques the corporate interests in gaming used to market and sell games. Perhaps more than most other multi-billion dollar industries, the marketing through non-traditional means such as player-produced reviews, insider blogs, and other industry-specific perceived non-paid endorsements are/were seen as a major part of how new games and hardware get marketed to potential consumers. An initial part of the flair-up occurred because the mistaken view that Zoe Quinn had cheated on her boyfriend to get a better review of her game tapped into building resentment of perceived Jones Soda aspects of this marketing structure. (Jones Soda famously paying popular kids to drink and promote their product as a guerilla marketing tactic.)

2) The behavior within the production and marketing industry generally towards women that is notorious for relying on sex to sell games, be it scantily clad women on game cover, in-game sexualized activities like hiring a prostitute or more abusive actions in sand-box games, or using attractive women who are part of a team to promote the games. A lot of friction exists here that bubbled up and over. This one is very difficult to view narrowly as it reflects similar problems through out marketing and many industries, especially where it's perceived to be marketing specifically to men. This also ties directly into point 3.

3) Industry-wide gender inequality issues where fewer women than men have been involved in most levels of game design, production, marketing and consumption. This ties into #2 where female participants that became well-known and recognized were promoted by companies but this tended to diminish their significant role on the creative/production teams where their skill and ability took a backseat to their marketing appeal to the target consumers. It undermined attempts to broaden nongender-centric promotion of the industry to new talent while fueling the belief that the role of attractive but promoted women were really another face underlying point #1. It fueled misogynists arguing that it was proof the women being promoted in the industry were really just part of the marketing scheme and not peers.

4) A meaningful segment of the gaming community (unfortunately, I would add) took this all to be part of a larger conspiracy by non-gaming interests to force identity politics onto gamers. This face took over and authored the hashtag, becoming both easy to condemn but completely detached from the actual issues in 1, 2 or 3. The hashtag-gamergaters promoted conspiracy claims of 2 and 3 as being part of a false flag operation, engaged in basically criminal behavior such as rape threats and invasion of privacy, and became a jumping off point for the narrow discussion to break wide.

The challenge is made more problematic in that 1,2, and 3 both predate the events of gamergate and continue to still be debated issues.

My argument, and underlying issue with the OP and Cam's responses, is they really engage only once one arrives at point 4 in the discussion. The question of what role OMM played in the debate assumes one of the positions in point 4 while not actually engaging the more common but real gender inequality issues that do deserve discussion and interest in promoting a breakdown of the barriers and treatment issues in the industry. Cam's posts are copy-and-paste examples of the things one would see from the 4chan-types who feed off of negative attention as proof SJW are irrational, emotional, and easily manipulated into shouting matches. Inserting Bannon and Breitbart, mirroring the hashtag crowd's claim of larger nefarious manipulation, becomes further escalation to where the conversation does not feel like it's taking place between adults but rather kids trying to present competing fantasies into their make-believe play that makes use of reality only as a framework on which to hang their preferred narrative.

ETA: Entering at point 4, where does one really begin the discussion? The rise of conservative talk show culture? I don't know. Thus my first comment in the thread.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Honor,

I think that was one of the best summaries I've read about the issue. I'm not a gamer, but you see 'gamergate' used quite a bit. I know Anita Sarkeesian is involved to a degree, but I just don't care enough about that industry to pay attention one way or the other. She seems to pop up a lot whenever this topic comes around.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

Sakeesian is a critic of the issues underlying #2 which made her a prime target for those who viewed this as an outsider intrusion into gaming by so-called social justice warriors. Her treatment by the worst of the chan-er types was inexcusable whatever one's view of her perspective. I'd have to go look but I'm fairly sure she was Dox'd and had rape threats against her that included her home address such that she and her husband had to leave their home.
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_EAllusion
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _EAllusion »

The issue I have with Honor's summary is that gamer-gate very quickly ended up having almost nothing to do with gaming. It became a door that misogyny and a sort of anti-social liberal culture walked right through. The idea that gamer-gate had actually something to do with "ethics in gaming jouralism" was a national joke almost instantly for good reason.

So when trying to explain what happened there, what you really want to know is what social trends drove this subculture of rampant, aggressive misogyny and related alt-rightish attitudes. The gamer-gate part of gamer-gate is almost an afterthought.
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:Sakeesian is a critic of the issues underlying #2 which made her a prime target for those who viewed this as an outsider intrusion into gaming by so-called social justice warriors. Her treatment by the worst of the chan-er types was inexcusable whatever one's view of her perspective. I'd have to go look but I'm fairly sure she was Dox'd and had rape threats against her that included her home address such that she and her husband had to leave their home.


Felicia Day, of all people, was doxed and subject to threats and sexist attacks because she penned an essay critical of what gamer-gaters were doing to the gaming community. The nastiness was primary, though. Anger over gaming journalism had basically nothing to do with it outside of being the flash-point. Gaming's main relevance is in how a subgroup of gamers were the perfect medium for this movement to grow in.
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:The issue I have with Honor's summary is that gamer-gate very quickly ended up having almost nothing to do with gaming. It became a door that misogyny and and a sort of anti-social liberal culture walked right through. The idea that gamer-gate had actually something to do with "ethics in gaming jouralism" was a national joke almost instantly for good reason.

So when trying to explain what happened there, what you really want to know is what social trends drove this subculture of rampant, aggressive misogyny and related alt-rightish attitudes. The gamer-gate part of gamer-gate is almost an afterthought.

Exactly the point that the discussion very quickly had nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with the two metanarrative arcs I've complained of throughout this thread.
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_EAllusion
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:
EAllusion wrote:The issue I have with Honor's summary is that gamer-gate very quickly ended up having almost nothing to do with gaming. It became a door that misogyny and and a sort of anti-social liberal culture walked right through. The idea that gamer-gate had actually something to do with "ethics in gaming jouralism" was a national joke almost instantly for good reason.

So when trying to explain what happened there, what you really want to know is what social trends drove this subculture of rampant, aggressive misogyny and related alt-rightish attitudes. The gamer-gate part of gamer-gate is almost an afterthought.

Exactly the point that the discussion very quickly had nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with the two metanarrative arcs I've complained of throughout this thread.


I hadn't read your posts since I last looked at this thread. I was responding to the summary at the top of this page. I apologize if I stepped over your previous points.
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:I hadn't read your posts since I last looked at this thread. I was responding to the summary at the top of this page. I apologize if I stepped over your previous points.

No need to apologize. Frankly if anyone thinks I'm off on a point I'd much rather hear that than have it ignored.

I did think I included this in the summary above, though I was trying to respond to Res Ipsa's request I explain what I meant when I was separating out issues within the gaming industry from the broader discussion. And if intelligent readers such as beastie and Res Ipsa are not following my argument I am not being very clear. At the risk of being perceived as talking down, I tried to be as comprehensive yet succinct as possible in that response. Here is where I thought I had included the previous point:

4) A meaningful segment of the gaming community (unfortunately, I would add) took this all to be part of a larger conspiracy by non-gaming interests to force identity politics onto gamers. This face took over and authored the hashtag, becoming both easy to condemn but completely detached from the actual issues in 1, 2 or 3. The hashtag-gamergaters promoted conspiracy claims of 2 and 3 as being part of a false flag operation, engaged in basically criminal behavior such as rape threats and invasion of privacy, and became a jumping off point for the narrow discussion to break wide.

The challenge is made more problematic in that 1,2, and 3 both predate the events of gamergate and continue to still be debated issues.

My argument, and underlying issue with the OP and Cam's responses, is they really engage only once one arrives at point 4 in the discussion. The question of what role OMM played in the debate assumes one of the positions in point 4 while not actually engaging the more common but real gender inequality issues that do deserve discussion and interest in promoting a breakdown of the barriers and treatment issues in the industry. Cam's posts are copy-and-paste examples of the things one would see from the 4chan-types who feed off of negative attention as proof social justice warrior are irrational, emotional, and easily manipulated into shouting matches. Inserting Bannon and Breitbart, mirroring the hashtag crowd's claim of larger nefarious manipulation, becomes further escalation to where the conversation does not feel like it's taking place between adults but rather kids trying to present competing fantasies into their make-believe play that makes use of reality only as a framework on which to hang their preferred narrative.

ETA: Entering at point 4, where does one really begin the discussion? The rise of conservative talk show culture? I don't know. Thus my first comment in the thread
.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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