Enjoy the trolls, folks

[_Runtu]

There has been a lot of that going on around here for quite a while.

In a free society...and may I say on a board that claims to be a place where freedom of opinion reigns (You can say that here!)...it would be unfortunate if this ceased to be the case.

As I've said before, at that point all there is is an echo chamber of like voices.

Regards,
MG

As someone who has defended you in the past, may I say this just pisses me off. You haven't been expelled by anyone, so to complain that this place is an "echo chamber" while you continue to post--far too often trolling and derailing--is absurd. You need to take some responsibility for your behavior and try to correct it, unless of course your aim is to troll and derail. But don't complain of an "echo chamber" when valuable posters have fled due to your bad behavior. Note that no pro-LDS posters have left because of your antics, so if anything, you have contributed to leveling the playing field by driving off those who disagree with you.

[_Xenophon]

As someone who has defended you in the past, may I say this just pisses me off. You haven't been expelled by anyone, so to complain that this place is an "echo chamber" while you continue to post--far too often trolling and derailing--is absurd. You need to take some responsibility for your behavior and try to correct it, unless of course your aim is to troll and derail. But don't complain of an "echo chamber" when valuable posters have fled due to your bad behavior. Note that no pro-LDS posters have left because of your antics, so if anything, you have contributed to leveling the playing field by driving off those who disagree with you.

You beat me to it, Runtu, so thank you.

MG, several of us have stuck up for your "right" to post here. Don't spit on that by posting the kind of "echo-chamber" nonsense. This is why less people come to your defense, I imagine. If you stick to your substantive posting as opposed to your meta-analysis of the board it would be easier for people to back you up. RI questioned you quite pointedly the last time we had a thread like this about what you contribute to this atmosphere. Think about his questions when you want to post something like that.

[_Dr Exiled]

I personally don't have a problem with MG or his trolling. I, like others, don't engage him much. I do like seeing him get taken to task at times, I have to confess. So, like someone once said, suffer the little trolls to come unto us so that we might expose them for what they are.

[_Gray Ghost]

The ignore feature exists. Just sayin.

[_Craig Paxton]

Good things happen on this board and also a lot of ____ stuff. I'm not going to be here while MG trolls and derails and good posters leave. Not where I want to be. Fare well and good luck.

Please NO. You are such an important voice on this board. I hope you reconsider. MG can kiss all of our collective arses

[_Stem]

The worth of a soul is great in the sight of God.

[_Res Ipsa]

As someone who has defended you in the past, may I say this just pisses me off. You haven't been expelled by anyone, so to complain that this place is an "echo chamber" while you continue to post--far too often trolling and derailing--is absurd. You need to take some responsibility for your behavior and try to correct it, unless of course your aim is to troll and derail. But don't complain of an "echo chamber" when valuable posters have fled due to your bad behavior. Note that no pro-LDS posters have left because of your antics, so if anything, you have contributed to leveling the playing field by driving off those who disagree with you.

You beat me to it, Runtu, so thank you.

MG, several of us have stuck up for your "right" to post here. Don't spit on that by posting the kind of "echo-chamber" nonsense. This is why less people come to your defense, I imagine. If you stick to your substantive posting as opposed to your meta-analysis of the board it would be easier for people to back you up. RI questioned you quite pointedly the last time we had a thread like this about what you contribute to this atmosphere. Think about his questions when you want to post something like that.

Yeah, he's his own worst enemy. And he made me lose a bet with myself. I bet myself he'd be on the queue within a week of Shades' decision based on what I perceived as a lack of self-awareness and an unwillingness to take responsibility for his own actions. His post here makes me think I should have just gone for a longer period of time. Maybe I convince myself to go double or nothing on a month...

I'm defending him at this point simply because he hasn't violated Shades' condition for staying out of the queue. I don't care whether he makes it easy or hard to defend him -- I'm doing it because I think it's the right thing to do. I thought everyone had at least grudgingly accepted Shades' decision. Mak's signature line said he had MG on ignore. MG posted a non-trolling, non-derailing post in a thread Mak started. Mak posted as if he didn't even read the post. So what, exactly, has happened that merits Shades changing his decision?

If he were smart, he'd sit back and have a harsh PPI with himself over what he did to get himself in this mess. He'd drop his meta martyr schtick and change that dickish signature line. My money's still not on smart.

[Guest]

I have to agree with Shulem, RI, Shades and others on this thread. Lemmie although I disagree with some of your rebuttal to Shades 3 points your first one really seemed off to me:

1. Where did Maksutov, ihaq, or grindael threaten you? In fact, ALL THREE subsequently made posts in support of (not necessarily agreement with) your decision in this matter. All three then made personal decisions that, to the best of my reading, never included a threat to you that made their leaving or not leaving contingent upon getting something from you.

In the thread that seems to have set Mak off, he says this:

I see a post from MG. Stay off my thread. You want to engage, apologize to Grindael. Otherwise, get lost. I will report you.

There is an implication in here that Mak expects some kind of action from the Moderation team. Shades is right to point out that nothing in MG's post is trollish or a derail in nature. MG's comment also spured Kishkumen to write on of the best posts I've ever read on this site. When Mak is informed that he will not receive the support of the mod team removing any post by MG, he quits.

[MODERATOR NOTE: Any participant is allowed to post within any thread. If he or she isn't breaking any rules, the moderators can't / won't do anything about it.]

Good bye, Dr. Shades. Enjoy your trolls.

How can Shades take that as anything but a threat? "If I don't get to dictate the rules of the thread, I'm leaving" is all Mak just said.

I'm very torn on this, because I enjoyed a lot of what IHAQ, Grindael and Make post but I view their response to this whole thing to be, quite frankly, exceptionally childish. How many here report Shulem's derails over facsimiles? Or Porter's constant Iced Tea attacks on MG? So many posters here exhibit the exact same behavior as MG (even if sometimes to a lesser degree) and have for years but we tolerate them. But since most here enjoy the other content of those posters we ignore it and look for the gems.

Edited for clarity

Ah yes, I see your point. I was thinking about the original comments the three made a week or so ago, and I didn't see any threat to Shades there, but yes, I see your point about this latest incident. Dr. Shades, if you are reading I was incorrect, it does seem to be reasonable to interpret an element of a threat in that most recent exchange, as Xenophon lays it out.

I will only say that given that I am pretty familiar with Maksutov's posts on this situation over the last year or so, I really don't think he intended it to come across that way. I interpreted his latest posts as more of just an "I'm fed up, that's enough, no more" type of response, and not a "do this or I will leave" response.

So many posters here exhibit the exact same behavior as MG (even if sometimes to a lesser degree) and have for years but we tolerate them. But since most here enjoy the other content of those posters we ignore it and look for the gems.

That I will have to disagree with. I have posted quite a bit about the passive aggressive tricks that some trollers use to cause considerable damage in a conversation while directing the blame away from themselves. The other posters you mention all uniformly cause their (sometimes quite considerable) havoc out in the open where it has a very different effect on a discussion, and can be dealt with in a very different, very straightforward way. If you haven't been the target of a passive aggressive attack from a troll, you really don't know how potentially disconcerting it can be. You may come into a thread at a point where a troll is doing his "who me?" innocent act, and see some nonsense and two-way exchanges, and frequently post things like what's the big deal? and just ignore it, and then leave thinking the other guy is way too thin-skinned... There is no way casual readers of these threads can even comprehend the lasting damage that builds up by being the main target of such passive aggressive nonsense. Yes we are all adults and we all should be able to tolerate this type of nonsense. I don't begrudge a single person, however, who decides the best way to deal with the nonsense is to stop frequenting the sites where it occurs.

ETA: (edited again to correct attribution of quote below:)

So what, exactly, has happened that merits Shades changing his decision?

I don't think Shades needs to change his ruling. He has made a decision. I may not agree, but I support his right to make it, and I will abide by it. It doesn't mean we can't talk about it though, if that helps people come to terms with it.

[Guest]

You may be right Lemmie, that Mak didn't mean his post that way but a reasonable reading of definitely could lead one to see it that way. I'm glad you agree.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree about various posters behavior. I concede that MG's was obviously worse (if I hadn't made that clear before) on whole than those other posters but it doesn't mean that some trolling isn't part of the identity of this board. Some of the most famous posters here were not much more than trolling and the Spirit boards have a fair share they can't shake off.

I too read the board pretty extensively, and wouldn't regard my understanding of what MG does as a casual take on the matter. That lasting damage as you call it is at least partially on the person that is supposedly damaged. IMHO, half of the reason MG continued to target Grindael (again, I concede he did) was because of Grindael's unfortunate inability to shake him off and find a way to work around or past it.

Yes we are all adults and we all should be able to tolerate this type of nonsense. I don't begrudge a single person, however, who decides the best way to deal with the nonsense is to stop frequenting the sites where it occurs.

Now that is something we 100% see eye-to-eye on. I don't begrudge a single poster for taking their ball and going home. I apologize if my tone might have suggested a poster isn't well within their rights to do so. I just worry that there is a general atmosphere that because a quality poster decides to leave, instead of cope, that this should change how we moderate the board. That part I vehemently disagree with.

I halfway suspect that if Mak had just ignored MG and let that thread progress MG probably would have stepped over the line and got himself onto the queue... but who knows.



P.S. that last quote belongs to RI and I agree that hashing that out can be constructive as I'm sure he does too.

[_Res Ipsa]

Yep, it was me. I'm always fine with talking. I think my post count is evidence of that.