Sex Before Marriage

[_Xenophon]

To clarify again, I only brought the 22 and 16 year old scenario because many told me the ""power differential" was the problem, but it seems it is not the problem after all.

So, what if a 22 and 16 year old are neighbors or from the same LDS ward, and the families have known each other for years?

Not all cases are equal and how the power dynamic works out will be unique to almost every scenario. A teacher-student relationship has a different power structure than your proposed 22-16 relationship, as does a boss-coworker relationship. Just because the dynamic is different, doesn't mean there isn't a disparity though.

In your 22-16 there is a wide gap in physical maturity, life experience and cultural expectations. The older individual will typically be granted a lot of leeway to take control of the relationship because of this gap. This is why just about anyone seeking a relationship with this kind of disparity is suspect because that gap exists and they will more than likely exploit it in some way, even if unintentional.

This is also the reason that someone seeking this kind of relationship is generally classified as insecure or emotionally immature, as they are more than likely unable to maintain a relationship without this power dynamic.

Remember, Wooderson in Dazed and Confused is not a sympathetic character.

That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age.

[Guest]

DT, if it helps you to think about the power dynamic of your 22-16 relationship a bit better try this on for size:

You're a sharp 16 y/o kid in his sophomore to junior year of high school. You've got a real knack for science/math and are really more interested in learning than in participating in your peers' antics. You find yourself relating more to your science teacher than your fellow students. Somehow, whether online or randomly out and about, you become antiquated with a super smart, super cool 22 y/o grad student at the local college. He shares a lot of the same interests as you, is studying what you want to study and all-in-all you two generally get along very well. Wouldn't you leap at the opportunity to spend time with this person that is representative of where/who you want to be?

Now to the power dynamic though: Although you may be friends, it still would be be expected that he should be more responsible than you, that he would be acting as a sort of mentor in ways (given his life experience), and that for all intents and purposes when you are the only 2 around he is the adult. Yes he still has a lot of growing up to do and he by no means has it all figured out but that doesn't remove the difference. It isn't a knock on the 16 y/o but it is entirely unreasonable to view these two characters on an even playing field. That is the disparity that makes people uncomfortable and is rife for abuse when it comes to making this a romantic relationship instead of platonic.

edit: for spelling and clarity, I suck at mobile posting.

[_Themis]

But you don't really believe it, it is quite obvious from all of your other posts that you don't think it really a problem. You don't even think a 35 year old woman who admitted to using teenage boys for self gratification should be in jail.

She took advantage of three 16 year old boys? I say it's bulls****. I think the boys took advantage of her.

I understand why many boys want to have sex with their attractive female teachers, and that some of them may try and flirt with their teachers, but why would she be the one being taken advantage of?

[_Lemmie]

But you don't really believe it, it is quite obvious from all of your other posts that you don't think it really a problem. You don't even think a 35 year old woman who admitted to using teenage boys for self gratification should be in jail.

She took advantage of three 16 year old boys? I say it's bulls****. I think the boys took advantage of her.

I understand why many boys want to have sex with their attractive female teachers, and that some of them may try and flirt with their teachers, but why would she be the one being taken advantage of?

She wasn't. DT didn't read the article he referenced.

[_honorentheos]

I was trying to bring a scenario of a 22 and 16 year old loving each other because honorentheos keeps keeps telling me sex shouldn't be about the sex. For Honorentheos there has to be romantic feelings. So when I brought it up the 22 and 16 year old scenerio Honorentheos obviously didn't like it.

To be clear, what I've said is:

1) Don't take advantage of someone else's vulnerability to gratify your own sexual needs, and

2) If you were to become the father of a 16 year old and still held the view that 22 years olds who pursue 16 year olds is something you'd be cool with, then you should have sought professional help before then.

When you can understand those points without running them through the filter of a teenage brain, neither will seem particularly controversial to you. Until then, I get that you are going to keep viewing anything that challenges your teenage thinking as akin to religious authority imposing itself.

One thing I find myself coming back to is how you reflect the kind of thinking an LDS apologist assumes a former Mormon apostate must hold. In fact, there are times I have suspected you may be an active Mormon trolling the board looking for someone to say something that shows support of a morally decayed mind. I keep coming back to the apparent inexperienced nature of your thinking as an alternative perspective from which to choose to engage you as a sincere participant in these discussions whether that is true or not. It would help, though, if you showed some sincere interest in engaging with EA on the question of developing an ethical worldview based on moral philosophy rather than rigid authority.

[Guest]

In fact, there are times I have suspected you may be an active Mormon trolling the board looking for someone to say something that shows support of a morally decayed mind. I keep coming back to the apparent inexperienced nature of your thinking as an alternative perspective from which to choose to engage you as a sincere participant in these discussions whether that is true or not. It would help, though, if you showed some sincere interest in engaging with EAllusion on the question of developing an ethical worldview based on moral philosophy rather than rigid authority.

It doesn't matter if I am sincere or not because sincerity is impossible to prove, whats important is an intelligent open minded discussion to learn from each other. I admit I am sometimes sarcastic, but only when there is no way to have a rational conversation. Just so you know I am not a believing Mormon troll, but I am an active Mormon that still takes the sacrament.

1) Don't take advantage of someone else's vulnerability to gratify your own sexual needs, and

So let's talk about ethics. In Bahrain it is morally wrong for a 24 year old to date an 18 year old, but in other countries like Germany and Croatia it is acceptable for a 21 year old to date a 15 year old. Let's forget about the sex, and talk about dating relationships. For you how would you define an acceptable dating relationship? Does age matter? Would it matter if a 50 year old dates a 20 year old? Or do we simply go by gut feelings? When is someone mature enough? Does maturity depend on the person or on the age?

She wasn't. DoubtingThomas didn't read the article he referenced.

I honestly don't see how a teacher can take advantage of three 16 year old boys. It was three guys, not one. 16 year olds aren't stupid.

[_honorentheos]

DT, will you do me a small favor, please? Ask EA to outline how he would define ethics.

[_DoubtingThomas]

DoubtingThomas, will you do me a small favor, please? Ask EAllusion to outline how he would define ethics.

Okay. Hey EAllusion. How do you define ethics?

[_DoubtingThomas]

It isn't a knock on the 16 y/o but it is entirely unreasonable to view these two characters on an even playing field. That is the disparity that makes people uncomfortable and is rife for abuse when it comes to making this a romantic relationship instead of platonic.

edit: for spelling and clarity, I suck at mobile posting.

Yes it makes sense to be very concerned.

I know a girl that says she got married at 16. The girl says her parents gave permission because she was a trouble maker and wouldn't go to class. She says her husband got her back to school to finish it. Now I don't know if it is true that she got married at 16, but such a story is possible. So I agree we should be very concerned, but it doesn't mean it is impossible for some good to come out of such a relationship.

In Bahrain it is immoral for a 25 year old to date a 19 year old, so my question is: Should we look at the person? should we look at the age? or Both? Where should we draw the line? Is 18 really old enough?

[_Lemmie]

She wasn't. DoubtingThomas didn't read the article he referenced.

I honestly don't see how a teacher can take advantage of three 16 year old boys. It was three guys, not one. 16 year olds aren't stupid.

It was your reference, DT, did you read any of it beyond the one sentence you quoted that referred to jail time?

I know a girl that says she got married at 16. The girl says her parents gave permission because she was a trouble maker and wouldn't go to class. She says her husband got her back to school to finish it. Now I don't know if it is true that she got married at 16, but such a story is possible. So I agree we should be very concerned, but it doesn't mean it is impossible for some good to come out of such a relationship.

So, third person hearsay about a random, single anecdote showing an extreme. That is not a good basis for developing an ethical position.

In Bahrain it is immoral for a 25 year old to date a 19 year old, so my question is: Should we look at the person? should we look at the age? or Both? Where should we draw the line? Is 18 really old enough?

How is any of that relevant to developing your own ethical position? I defer to honorentheos on this:

It would help, though, if you showed some sincere interest in engaging with EAllusion on the question of developing an ethical worldview based on moral philosophy rather than rigid authority.

I'm sure it is difficult to try to maintain an active LDS stance when your family believes and you don't, but if you married your LDS girlfriend, then she is in a difficult position also. I wish the two of you well with your relationship. I would definitely consider not having kids until you have a little more figured out.