Politics over Religion at MD&D

[_Kishkumen]

I am going to get so much crap for this...but for whatever Trump expounds..and/or is guilty of...and I agree..there is some very, very questionable things...the bars should surround him should also be around the Clintons...oh my gosh...what a double standard we have created in the parties of politics. I cannot ..nor ever ever understand why this woman and her husband are yet free...you lock Trump in..the Clinton's go too I just cannot understand it.

Yeah, you should catch hell for it. There is a big difference between people who are equipped and experienced to do a job, and those who have no business getting within a mile of it. It is called knowledge, experience, and intelligence. Someone had it going into that contest; the other person manifestly did not. I really don't care how much you hate Bill and Hillary. I have never been a fan personally. But I think it is worse than useless to try to compare their fitness to be in one of the most complicated political roles in the entire world.

No thanks to the millions of Americans who are too stupid to understand that.

You can't understand why the Clintons are free? In what sense? You think they should be convicted of crimes and locked up?

Why? Other than the bizarro conspiracy theories and endless investigations that have gone nowhere, what actual charge do you think they should be locked up for?

Seriously.

Go ahead. Hate them. They are obnoxious. But don't come here with BS conspiracy theories and empty accusations.

[_Kishkumen]

I agree. I mean it's true 25 years ago we elected an accused rapist, which is pretty scary. Not acknowledging what we overlooked then is not part of our problem would be stupid.

Yes, Bill Clinton is a moral reprobate. I didn't like him then. I don't like him now. But this is not really an argument for voting for Trump. It is not really an argument for accusing Hillary Clinton of crimes.

And it is noted that, instead of pointing out that there is a difference, you once again pretend that it is all the same.

Not only is that annoying as hell, it is irresponsible.

[_Stem]

This is the kind of meaningless conciliatory rhetoric I am talking about. Just stop it.

I'm happy enough if you want to join Holland and call me a taffy puller too. Trump's whole effort, as he claims it anyway, and I assume sees it, is he's trying to make the country work, do better. Sure it's likely he's doing it to build his own ego. His every move seems to show that. But it's also likely he sees himself as doing it for those in the country too. Altruism is great and all but it also happens that when someone tries to do something for others, he/she is building his/her own ego. For Trump I'd guess that it's his ego first then help the country sometime after that.

What did you think that reasonably sensible people would imagine and hope for going into the election? Did you imagine that they would think so poorly of everyone in the country as to imagine Trump winning? What's to gloat about here? What you, evidently swayed somewhat by the anti-media frenzy from propagandists on the Right, think about the media's reaction is baffling to me. They don't think they are in control. They thought better of the American people than many of them obviously deserved.

Yeah, I am sorry I was so elitist as to think that people should not indulge conspiracy theories or be deceived by two-bit con artists, but I did. I guess I was and I was wrong. It was not because I thought I should rule the world. It was because I thought people would not put a reality tv star with no qualifications other than a fortune acquired through branding and thievery into the Oval Office.

And, no, I did not think you voted for Trump. I never said you did.

And, yes, I think there are some things worth getting worked up over. So thrilled that you think the possible end of our system is not such a big deal.

End of our system? I don't know about that. I appreciate your passion on this though. I do feel myself less concerned then you are. It feels almost conspiratorial to see Trump as going to end our democracy, or that this will end our system, which seems already broken anyway. I find myself seeing the country resolute enough to move on from this.

[_Stem]

Yes, Bill Clinton is a moral reprobate. I didn't like him then. I don't like him now. But this is not really an argument for voting for Trump. It is not really an argument for accusing Hillary Clinton of crimes.

And it is noted that, instead of pointing out that there is a difference, you once again pretend that it is all the same.

Not only is that annoying as hell, it is irresponsible.

An argument for voting for Trump? An argument for accusing Hillary? I'm not arguing either of those things...at all. I'm saying, essentially, "Trump is a symptom and not the illness, I agree. We still have to address the symptom, though." -Symmachus, posted Thu Dec 14,2017 10:55 am

[_Kishkumen]

I'm happy enough if you want to join Holland and call me a taffy puller too. Trump's whole effort, as he claims it anyway, and I assume sees it, is he's trying to make the country work, do better. Sure it's likely he's doing it to build his own ego. His every move seems to show that. But it's also likely he sees himself as doing it for those in the country too. Altruism is great and all but it also happens that when someone tries to do something for others, he/she is building his/her own ego. For Trump I'd guess that it's his ego first then help the country sometime after that.

Do you generally believe anything a person claims? I mean, come on, Stem. What evidence do we have that Trump is genuinely altruistic in any meaningful sense? Was it the charitable foundation he has abused to pay for a portrait of himself that tipped you off?

Just stop with the taffy puller BS. Yes, really cute. You don't think there is much cause to be upset, but then you also believe that Trump is altruistic, which says nothing good about your judgment or basic knowledge of the English language.

altruism
1. the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others

2. behavior of an animal that benefits another at its own expense

Trump? Seriously? No, you are wrong to think that a person who is doing something to stroke his own ego is altruistic. That does not fit the definition of altruism.

End of our system? I don't know about that. I appreciate your passion on this though. I do feel myself less concerned then you are. It feels almost conspiratorial to see Trump as going to end our democracy, or that this will end our system, which seems already broken anyway. I find myself seeing the country resolute enough to move on from this.

Yeah, you don't know. As he violates practically every tradition and standard that has defined the presidency for decades, you don't know about the threat he poses to our system. These are things we have watched happen, Stem, so I don't know where you are pulling the word "conspiracy" from. Do you even know what a conspiracy is?

It isn't something you think another person is too upset about for your taste.

[_Morley]

I know you didn't start this tread, but thank you for fueling it, Reverend. I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your time and effort.

[_Meadowchik]

Yes, Bill Clinton is a moral reprobate. I didn't like him then. I don't like him now. But this is not really an argument for voting for Trump. It is not really an argument for accusing Hillary Clinton of crimes.

And it is noted that, instead of pointing out that there is a difference, you once again pretend that it is all the same.

Not only is that annoying as hell, it is irresponsible.

An argument for voting for Trump? An argument for accusing Hillary? I'm not arguing either of those things...at all. I'm saying, essentially, "Trump is a symptom and not the illness, I agree. We still have to address the symptom, though." -Symmachus, posted Thu Dec 14,2017 10:55 am

A broken system and an even worse president are not mutually exclusive.

[_Uncle Ed]

Remember this? https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjdmo2omyqf3wrb/horton%20gets%20a%20clue.jpg?dl=0

The political machines are so alike, agenda and exploitation, that The Donald defeated them all. Unlikely as that was, every step of the way, he was taken to the pinnacle of power by the popular vote in over ninety percent of the counties in the US. Calling that many Americans "stupid" is ridiculous.

I like this reminder of the reaction from the over-confident Democrats: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6mq89h3ufx6yhx1/melting%20snowflakes.jpg?dl=0

Enough improvements have already happened, and are happening, that his first year in office is justifiably accounted a success. He just plows ahead. Now, if he could just keep his mouth shut things would be less annoying for many. But also not as much fun.

I did not vote for him either.

[_Symmachus]

A broken system and an even worse president are not mutually exclusive.

I agree. One could find lots of cultural threads stretching back to the 60s and further beyond to explain the rise of someone, who I hope is the last president we have from the baby boomers—the greediest generation—but it's all pretty academic as long he is president. Anyone who thinks institutions are inherently strong because they are old is not only historically naïve but not paying attention (e.g. the attacks on the FBI, the blatant politicization of the judiciary by appointing yes-men and hacks rather than competent judges, the prone Senate Republicans eager to win the support of Trump's base, the rabid adulation he enjoys from a House caucus that knows no principle but power, etc. etc. etc.).

The only reason you pull over when a police car turns on its lights is because you believe that the person driving that car 1) has the authority to pull you over and 2) has the means to support that authority. Trump is refusing to pull over, and a significant part of the country buys his argument that the police car is a fake, and that the person driving has no authority. We'll see over the coming months whether the person driving agrees.

As Thomas Ricks put it, if Trump were competent, he'd be terrifying. His incompetence is our salvation.

...the popular vote in over ninety percent of the counties in the US.

The human voters went for Clinton in the popular vote, but at least Trump overwhelmingly won the all-important empty-space demographic. I'm told he also won empty closets and drawers by huge margins, in addition to 62,000,000 door knobs.

[_Stem]

Do you generally believe anything a person claims? I mean, come on, Stem. What evidence do we have that Trump is genuinely altruistic in any meaningful sense? Was it the charitable foundation he has abused to pay for a portrait of himself that tipped you off?

I'm happy to report I that I have decided to take back my concession that Trump at least claims altruism of some sort. It not only feels like inessential quibbling to pursue it, I didn't really mean to suggest he is much beyond his own desire to feed himself.

[quoteJust stop with the taffy puller ____. Yes, really cute. You don't think there is much cause to be upset, but then you also believe that Trump is altruistic, which says nothing good about your judgment or basic knowledge of the English language.[/quote]

Fine.

altruism
1. the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others

2. behavior of an animal that benefits another at its own expense

Trump? Seriously? No, you are wrong to think that a person who is doing something to stroke his own ego is altruistic. That does not fit the definition of altruism.

I guess so. I was offering the concession while considering that any person who is altruistic often also seems to benefit his/her ego by getting notice and praise. SOmetimes as that continues the feeding of that ego continues. I'd guess as much as we try it's near impossible to be purely altruistic, but oddly most of us have something in us that is altruistic. I may be wrong, but taht's kind of where I was coming from.

Yeah, you don't know. As he violates practically every tradition and standard that has defined the presidency for decades, you don't know about the threat he poses to our system. These are things we have watched happen, Stem, so I don't know where you are pulling the word "conspiracy" from. Do you even know what a conspiracy is?

It isn't something you think another person is too upset about for your taste.

I'm happy your passionate about it, as I said. I'm actually encouraged to see you and people upset. it means you care. Just because I'm not as upset doesn't mean I object to your anger. While I agree Trump has violated practically every tradition and standard, I'm also less concerned that by doing so he's going to end the system, or defeat democracy.

All the best. This feels like we're quibbling about the inessential to me. I get you probably disagree with that, as it seems it really matters to you that I or someone else disagrees about whether Trump's going to end the system. To me your concern feels a little too dramatized. But it's your feeling/conclusion/concern and I hope it all works out a little better in the end.