The Last Jedi **WARNING: SPOILERS ALLOWED**

[_honorentheos]

Cam - taking your comments at face value, it seems like EA's accusation is correct. Your posts above give lip service to equality and fairness but are essentially confirming your problem has to do with women that was aggravated by a female hero being something you take issue with rather than a comment about the believability of a particular movie and their treatment of the good guy characters in general, Rey being one example among many in the film.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Cam - taking your comments at face value, it seems like EAllusion's accusation is correct. Your posts above give lip service to equality and fairness but are essentially confirming your problem has to do with women that was aggravated by a female hero being something you take issue with rather than a comment about the believability of a particular movie and their treatment of the good guy characters in general, Rey being one example among many in the film.

I have a problem with women like I have a problem with men. I have no issue criticizing women for derpy behavior as I do men.

YOUR problem, along with EA's, is that you monolithalized women and an attack against one is an attack against all. I think this is particularly loathesome and patronizing behavior born out of paternalism.

Basically low-key misogyny.

- Doc

[_EAllusion]

Actually, my complaint is that you adopted an inapt criticism that is not coincidentally mainly popular among online misogynists while not even being familiar with the material. I gave reasons to reject that criticism and noted it is not coincidental that you again return to rhetoric, even specific jargon, popular among the red pill crowd. And in responding to that, you double down hard on the same rhetoric.

But do go on about movie critics who like a movie you haven't even seen being "SJW's" because they gave it at least lukewarm positive reviews.

The reason sexists get worked up about Rey being a Mary Sue is that they are hypersenstive to perceived faults in female characters compared to male characters and see heroic or powerful traits in them in terms of a sort of narrative affirmative action. They do this even in a fantasy context. They have their own argot for talking about this that you adopt to the letter.

If you want to argue that it is mere coincidence that you adopt that parlance, even though in multiple threads on multiple subjects you by the numbers repeat the language and ideas of some misogynist reddit sub, that's cool. It still doesn't change that your criticisms are inapt and it is ridiculous that you feel the need to so stridently argue them for a film you haven't even fully seen. That you would do this betrays a pathological need to be right, no matter how wrong you are, that you then preemptively accuse those who disagree with you with. That's not unlike you trying to claim that people who point out your bigoted comments are the real bigots.

[_EAllusion]

Rey isn't good at everything she tries. She's good at specific things that she's given a backstory for in an effort to explain why she has traits convenient for the narrative. This follows Luke Skywalker because the character is written as a soft reboot of Luke Skywalker with a large list of parallels between the two.

Rey is not a faultless character who experiences easy success. The film portrays her as internally conflicted and one of the central conflicts in the story turns on her running away when she is needed.

When she succeeds against all odds, like Luke, (perhaps perfunctory) effort is made in the narrative to explain how that was possible.

The cool characters of the Star Wars universe don't just instinctively fawn over and admire her as you see in the Mary Sue trope. Without spoiling anything, this is obviously so if you've seen the bloody movies.

A Mary Sue is a character like Wesley Crusher in Star Trek: TNG or Bella Swan in Twilight. Rey is more of a heroic archetype in the vein of Star Wars' established cliches. She's in a newer film with slicker production values that has some pacing issues that make her journey feel rushed. Those pacing issues or Rey being good at things or experiencing triumph does not a Mary Sue make. I recommend listening to the Red Letter Media review of TLJ after you've seen it so you can receive a much deserved mocking.

[_Analytics]

Perhaps I missed it, but did anybody have a bad feeling about anything in the entire movie?

The deliberate exclusion of that line is sacrilegious. That is what people should really be upset about.

[_honorentheos]

Cam - taking your comments at face value, it seems like EAllusion's accusation is correct. Your posts above give lip service to equality and fairness but are essentially confirming your problem has to do with women that was aggravated by a female hero being something you take issue with rather than a comment about the believability of a particular movie and their treatment of the good guy characters in general, Rey being one example among many in the film.

I have a problem with women like I have a problem with men. I have no issue criticizing women for derpy behavior as I do men.

YOUR problem, along with EAllusion's, is that you monolithalized women and an attack against one is an attack against all. I think this is particularly loathesome and patronizing behavior born out of paternalism.

Basically low-key misogyny.

- Doc

It's one thing to see all of the characters from the movie as over the top. It's another to single out Rey. When you say things like the following -

I think it's a deliberate amalgamation of Disney Princess, memberberries, and basically hamburger cuisine. Business Trump's story so you get: Cool effects. Nostalgia. Disney adversity story starring Grrrrl. Hamburgers. Tasty. Safe. Predictable. Explosions.

- your issue seems to include something personal regarding the representation of female characters. If pointing that out is "monolithaliz(ing)" women, then ok whatever. I fully agree that Rey is amped up beyond how Luke was presented in the original trilogy...but so is every other parallel character in TFA compared to ANH. Making the argument all of the characters are less believable is one thing. Getting bent over specifically regarding the female lead and describing it as you do above says you have some kind of problem when it comes to women. It just does.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Oh. My "issues." Well, do I need to list off all the female characters I found entertaining, admirable, or worthy of esteem? I'll also remind whomever is reading I voted for *gasp* two women in the last election cycle.

My "issue" is with the mentally ill types who can't seem to separate fantasy from reality (note one of them actually got nauseated from a snarky meme) and seem to be perpetually fixated on their height inability to pull ass put their personal demons to bed, thus they become psychotically devoted to their SJW crusade. It's utterly bizarre.

- Doc

[_EAllusion]

You seem literally incapable of understanding how the "But I have a friend who is [X]..." argument is irrational and a clichéd dead giveaway that someone has said something bigoted towards [X].

Just because you voted for a woman doesn't mean you don't say misogynist things or things that recall misogynist rhetoric. Those two facts aren't incompatible with one another. This is nearly as bad as Roy Moore's wife insisting they can't have a problem with antisemitism because they have a Jew lawyer.

Saying her gender has nothing to do with it is dubious both because you adopt a poor argument popular almost exclusively among sexists even though you haven't actually seen the film and because you say things like, "Disney adversity story starring Grrrrl." Seems like gender might have something to do with it. But even if one reads you as generously as possible, the actual merit of the film criticism is dubious.

[_EAllusion]

You seem literally incapable of understanding how the "But I have a friend who is [X]..." argument is irrational and a clichéd dead giveaway that someone has said something bigoted towards [X].

I should amend this. You routinely accuse other people who have done things like vote for female politicians and like female characters in film and television of being a misogynist. So you seem to understand in their case that one can be a misogynist while also doing things like voting for a woman. You just think that's a solid defense in your case. It's a rationalization wrapped in a double standard.

[_honorentheos]

Cam,

I was originally giving you the benefit of a doubt on the thread. I was open to your comments about Rey and the TFA generally being a comment about not being able to suspend disbelief enough in the movie to get into it, and bailing before you saw it all the way through. I don't read or care about "man-o-sphere" websites and have no idea what is a common trope among those who do. I was open to EA possibly misreading you based on a parallel he saw in your post with those sites. I even share some of the same criticisms of TFA in regards to it being amped up to an almost mythic level. I just don't see this being a problem with Rey so much as the entire cast of characters as well as the movie plot points. I even agree with the "2 Fast 2 Furious" joking meme to the extent the movie is mega Star Wars and can't agree with EA on the attempts to say Rey and Luke are the same any more than can agree the Death Star and Starkiller Base are basically the same thing. Yeah, sure. One just happens to need the energy of an entire star to power it but they're more or less the same thing...

But man, you took the shovel and dug hard at this hole in this thread to the point it isn't debatable that there is more going on than just a problem with the movie.